In this episode of the Be More Podcast, host Tom Bassett chats with Philip Pan, Senior Product Designer at Salesforce Commerce Cloud, whose path to design began in a surprising place — the courtroom. Once a practicing attorney, Philip shares how the 2008 Financial Crisis prompted a bold career pivot toward something that brought him joy at a task level: making things. Now, with over a decade in software design and five years shaping user experiences at Salesforce, Philip reflects on how design blends creativity, empathy, and structure to build meaningful products that serve both business goals and human needs.

Together, Tom and Philip unpack what it means to Be More Product Designer — exploring the role’s close collaboration with product managers, engineers, and content teams; the humility and long-view thinking it requires; and the evolving landscape of tools, AI, and accessibility. Philip offers candid advice for those starting out: focus on people, learn from those you admire, and remember that success should never come at the expense of kindness. This episode reminds us that great design isn’t just about pixels — it’s about purpose, persistence, and empowering others to do good work.