What can we learn about the future of the church by looking back at Robert Schuller? In this episode, Loren Richmond Jr. speaks with sociologists Gerardo Marti and Mark Mulder about their new biography, The Church Must Grow or Perish: Robert Schuller and the Business of American Christianity. Together, they explore how Schuller’s entrepreneurial vision, drive-in worship, and architectural grandeur helped shape the megachurch model—and why his story still matters today. This wide-ranging conversation dives into Schuller’s deep pastoral commitment, his embrace of American capitalism, and the unspoken ways his model of church innovation continues to influence today’s pastors. Loren, Gerardo, and Mark also reflect on what it means to lead faithfully in a culture defined by speed, spectacle, and constant change. Topics Covered The rise and fall of Robert Schuller and the Crystal Cathedral Why Schuller’s legacy lives on in today’s church growth models How capitalism and faith became intertwined in modern ministry The unintended consequences of constant innovation Schuller’s surprising theological conservatism and deep pastoral care What “resonance” offers as a response to cultural acceleration Mark T. Mulder is Professor of Sociology at Calvin University and director of the Common Good Collective. He is the author or co-author of five books In addition, Mulder has published numerous peer-reviewed articles in academic journals, including Social Problems, Religion and American Culture, and The Journal of Urban History. He has also published pieces for church audiences and won writing awards from the Evangelical Press Association and the Associated Church Press.  Gerardo Martí is William R. Kenan, Jr. Professor of Sociology at Davidson College and president of the Society for the Scientific Study of Religion. A prolific and award winning author, his research explores religious innovation and the role of religion in shaping patterns of racialization and political engagement in the United States. Bluesky ‪@gerardomarti.bsky.social   Mentioned Resources: 🌐 Faculty Website: https://calvin.edu/people/mark-mulder 🌐 Faculty Website: https://www.davidson.edu/people/gerardo-marti 📖  Previous Book: https://www.rutgersuniversitypress.org/the-glass-church/9780813589060/ 📖  The Book: https://www.eerdmans.com/9780802878557/the-church-must-grow-or-perish/ 🎧 Andrew Root: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/walking-into-sorrow-andrew-root-on-evangelism-in-the-age-of-despair/ 🎧 Andrew Root: https://futurechristian.podbean.com/e/andy-root/ 🎧 Andrew Root: https://www.podbean.com/eas/pb-jtzdu-1500e5e       Presenting Sponsor: Phillips Seminary Join conversations that expose you to new ideas, deepen your commitment and give insights to how we can minister in a changing world.    Supporting Sponsors: Restore Clergy If you are clergy in need of tailored, professional support to help you manage the demands of ministry, Restore Clergy is for you! Kokoro  Join in for heartfelt journeys that challenges the way we see ourselves, each other, and the world we share.   Future Christian Team: Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host Paul Romig–Leavitt – Associate Producer Dennis Sanders – Producer Alexander Lang - Production Assistant