Under the Trump administration, the Department of Health and Human Services, the Environmental Protection Agency and other key federal departments are shedding thousands of experienced scientists. This assault on federal scientists will have a lasting effect for generations, eliminating much-needed expertise that has historically played a central role in developing rules that protect human health and the environment. Two leaders in the science community – Dr. Linda Birnbaum and Dr. Micah Niemeier-Walsh – talk with Ken about the widespread damage this brain drain is causing. Birnbaum worked at the EPA and as the director of the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences. Niemeier-Walsh is an industrial hygienist in the Firefighter Health Program and the National Firefighter Registry for Cancer at the National Institute for Occupational Safety & Health. Federal rules that safeguard the environment and public health need scientific research – without it, backsliding to weaker rules and more pollution is the only likely outcome.