In this conversation, Graeme and Joey sit down with Mark Sayers and discuss what Mark learned about ministry during the Melbourne lockdowns, why embodied ministry matters so much, how proceduralism has blunted the church's mission, how the church needs to be a pillar rather than a platform in the world, how everything is politically changing in the world, transcendence and immanence, what is means to be human, and how the Trump foreign policy will change Australia and New Zealand. Mark Sayer...