Thinking about poetry and dreams and the way it relates to our mind and the ways we interact with the world can be a extremely effective way to get curious about ourselves and others. On this episode we invite our friend Katy Richardson to join us for a super playful and insightful conversation about the ways that we think about the free, seemingly nonsensical, paradoxical nature of poetry. Poetry and free association and the ways that words link up and sometimes misfire can help us enter into conversations about meaning and motives. Katy is a licensed therapist and went to grad school with Mace is a fan of Lacanian psychoanalysis! We hope you have as much fun listening to this conversations as we did having it!