In this episode of Peaceable and Kind, Derek Vreeland sits down with theologian and author Matthew Bates for a lively and challenging conversation about his newest book, Beyond the Salvation Wars: Why Both Protestants and Catholics Must Reimagine How We Are Saved. Matthew is Professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary, co-host of the OnScript podcast, and an author whose work has deeply influenced the way we think about the gospel. Drawing from N.T. Wright, Scot McKnight, and others, Matthew has developed the "gospel allegiance" model of salvation—centered on the idea that saving faith (Greek: pistis) means allegiance to King Jesus. In this episode, Derek and Matthew dig into what that means for long-standing theological divides between Protestants and Catholics, Calvinists and Arminians. With humor, candor, and a bit of theological edge, this conversation explores everything from the whether or not baptism is the starting point of salvation to the backlash Matthew has received from critics of his allegiance model. Derek doesn’t hold back in sharing how Bates’ work has shaped his thinking, even challenging his own sacramental theology. Whether you're Reformed, Catholic, Orthodox, or somewhere in between, this episode invites you to reconsider how we talk about salvation—and why it matters now more than ever. Key Takeaways Saving faith is better understood as allegiance to Jesus as King. The gospel allegiance model offers a bridge across Protestant-Catholic and Calvinist-Arminian divides. Baptism is not an event but a nuanced process which begins by the declaration of allegiance. Matthew Bates’ work has drawn pushback—especially from some within the Reformed tradition—but also offers a hopeful vision for Christian unity around the gospel. Distinguishing between God’s saving action, the means of reception, and the results can bring clarity to complex debates. Books mentioned in this episode: Salvation by Allegiance Alone – Matthew Bates Gospel Allegiance – Matthew Bates The Gospel Precisely – Matthew Bates Why the Gospel? – Matthew Bates Beyond the Salvation Wars – Matthew Bates The King Jesus Gospel – Scot McKnight 🎧 Listen now and enter the conversation on what it really means to be saved—and what kind of gospel we are called to believe. Preorder Derek's new book, Incarnation: 8 Lessons on How God Meets Us here: https://amzn.to/42jSZAs Did this episode spark a new way of thinking for you? Here’s how you can support the show: Leave a review Share it with your friends—even if you think it’s heresy 😉 Give us a 5-star rating on your favorite podcast app Get to know the host: https://derekvreeland.com Interact with Derek on Instagram, Twitter, Bluesky, or Facebook Episode Website