In this second in a series of coversations between Barrie Risman and Pobsa Frank Jude, they discuss the third of the principles Barrie enumerates in her book, "Evolving Your Yoga."

Along the way, they discuss the difference between "change" and "transformation", the three aspects of Kriya Yoga and how to understand them in a contemporary practice context, different understandings of "self" and the relationship between "self-effort" and "grace" such as in what way does "grace" play a part for a non-theist naturalist?