In this energising and wide-ranging conversation, Dave Whitaker joins James and David to explore behaviour, belonging, learner effectiveness, and the courageous cultural work needed to create schools in which every child can thrive. Dave Whitaker is the Chief Education Officer at the Wellspring Academy Trust, working across 33 schools and alternative provisions in the north of England and Lincolnshire. A former geography teacher who moved through the pastoral route into leadership, Dave is known nationally for The Kindness Principle, his advocacy for relational practice, and his unwavering belief that children flourish when adults lead with compassion, consistency, and high expectations rooted in humanity. His Guardian-featured work on creating exclusion-free, restorative, relational schools challenged the national narrative on behaviour and ignited a conversation that still reverberates today. Across Wellspring’s mainstream, AP, SEMH and special schools, Dave supports leaders to build cultures of unconditional positive regard, trauma-informed practice, context-specific autonomy, and a strong collective commitment to inclusion. His work demonstrates that it is possible to run high-functioning, high-expectation schools without relying on zero-tolerance, punitive systems - but only if leaders invest in the three-to-five-year cultural journey required to get there. James and David share insights from the Education Policy Alliance and the urgent need to reconfigure systems that default to behaviourism, high-stakes testing, and top-down reform. They connect these ideas to the recent Everybody Thriving unconference and Wellspring’s Next Decade conference, examining how genuine change happens — and why it so often doesn’t. Together, they explore: Why kindness is not a soft option — and why it’s astonishing that this still needs saying How relational practice sits on a spectrum from zero-tolerance to “batter them with kindness” Why cultural transformation in schools takes 3-5 years, not weeks How Wellspring has never had a permanent exclusion Why some behaviour approaches become “selective by culture” The misconceptions that plague relational, restorative and trauma-informed practice The problem with national top-down reform, and why place-based change matters Why we need a more expansive definition of human development — beyond subjects How strong cultures give staff autonomy while holding shared values at the core Why bravery from leaders and trusts is essential in an Ofsted-driven system This is a hopeful, deeply practical conversation about culture, compassion, courage and what it really takes to build inclusive schools that work for ALL children. Links The Kindness Principle (Dave’s book): https://www.crownhouse.co.uk/the-kindness-principle Wellspring Academy Trust: https://wellspringacademytrust.co.uk Dave on Twitter/X: https://x.com/davewhitaker246 Guardian article - ‘We batter them with kindness’: schools that reject super-strict values- https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/feb/27/schools-discipline-unconditional-positive-regard School isolation rooms are damaging pupil wellbeing, new study warns - https://www.manchester.ac.uk/about/news/school-isolation-rooms-are-damaging-pupil-wellbeing Wellspring’s Next Decade conference: https://thenextdecade.co.uk/ Support the pod The Rethinking Education podcast is brought to you by Crown House Publishing. It is hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, and produced by Sophie Dean. This podcast is a labour of love, and we love doing it. If you’d like to support the podcast and convey your appreciation for these conversations, you can: Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod Buy us a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod