Ambrogio A. Caiani is a historian and author specializing in Revolutionary France and Napoleonic Italy. A Senior Lecturer at the University of Kent, his works include Louis XVI and the French Revolution and To Kidnap a Pope: Napoleon and Pius VII. His latest book, Losing a Kingdom, Gaining the World, explores the Catholic Church’s struggle with modernity.

In this episode, Caiani takes us inside the dramatic story of To Kidnap a Pope, unraveling Napoleon’s audacious seizure of Pope Pius VII and the high-stakes battle between empire and faith. We discuss the pope’s defiance, Napoleon’s shifting attitudes toward religion, and the diplomatic chess game that shaped Europe.

Our conversation also explores the psychological and political dimensions of Napoleon’s actions, the pope’s resilience in captivity, and the long-term consequences of this extraordinary clash between temporal and spiritual power.

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Chapters:

00:00 The Dechristianization of France During the French Revolution

06:58 The Early Lives of Pope Pius VII and Napoleon

12:02 Napoleon’s Religious Beliefs: Was He an Atheist?

14:56 Pope Pius VII’s Rise to Power

23:08 Napoleon’s Ascendancy: From General to Emperor

27:44 Intense Negotiations Between France and the Holy See

36:45 Napoleon Crowns Himself Emperor: A Historic Moment

47:53 The Breakdown of the Pope-Napoleon Relationship

52:00 The Kidnapping of Pope Pius VII

01:04:41 The Fall of Napoleon: The End of an Era