Kathleen Fisher and Byron Cook dive into automated reasoning and formal verification as tools for building truly secure software systems. PSA for AI builders: Interested in alignment, governance, or AI safety? Learn more about the MATS Summer 2026 Fellowship and submit your name to be notified when applications open: https://matsprogram.org/s26-tcr. They explain how formal methods can harden critical infrastructure against AI-enabled cyberattacks, and how assumptions, specifications, and proofs combine to deliver real security guarantees. The conversation explores using these techniques to train coding models, enable a “great software rewrite,” and power AWS’s new automated reasoning checks for AI agents and policy compliance. Sponsors: MATS: MATS is a fully funded 12-week research program pairing rising talent with top mentors in AI alignment, interpretability, security, and governance. Apply for the next cohort at https://matsprogram.org/s26-tcr Tasklet: Tasklet is an AI agent that automates your work 24/7; just describe what you want in plain English and it gets the job done. Try it for free and use code COGREV for 50% off your first month at https://tasklet.ai Agents of Scale: Agents of Scale is a podcast from Zapier CEO Wade Foster, featuring conversations with C-suite leaders who are leading AI transformation. Subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts Shopify: Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide, handling 10% of U.S. e-commerce. With hundreds of templates, AI tools for product descriptions, and seamless marketing campaign creation, it's like having a design studio and marketing team in one. Start your $1/month trial today at https://shopify.com/cognitive CHAPTERS: (00:00) About the Episode (04:52) AI Reshapes Cybersecurity (10:16) Formal Methods Foundations (17:46) Security Properties Assumptions (Part 1) (21:27) Sponsors: MATS | Tasklet (24:27) Security Properties Assumptions (Part 2) (28:31) Helicopter Formal Verification (38:15) Proof Confidence And AWS (Part 1) (41:52) Sponsors: Agents of Scale | Shopify (44:40) Proof Confidence And AWS (Part 2) (50:33) Automated Reasoning For Policies (01:04:39) Generative AI Meets Verification (01:19:42) Securing Future AI Systems (01:31:19) Agentic Guardrails And Governance (01:40:44) Outro PRODUCED BY: https://aipodcast.ing SOCIAL LINKS: Website: https://www.cognitiverevolution.ai Twitter (Podcast): https://x.com/cogrev_podcast Twitter (Nathan): https://x.com/labenz LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/nathanlabenz/ Youtube: https://youtube.com/@CognitiveRevolutionPodcast Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/de/podcast/the-cognitive-revolution-ai-builders-researchers-and/id1669813431 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6yHyok3M3BjqzR0VB5MSyk