Clear measurement is one of the biggest missing pieces in sustainability.

In this episode of The Plucky Bamboo Podcast, Chris Jones sits down with Jeff Kirschner, founder of Litterati, to talk about what it really takes to create impact in complex, real-world systems like waste and plastic pollution.

Jeff shares how Litterati evolved from a community clean-up idea into a data science company working with cities, brands, and institutions around the world. They explore why awareness alone doesn’t drive change, why many sustainability interventions fail without a baseline, and how data helps leaders make better decisions about policy, infrastructure, and investment.

The conversation also dives into the realities of building a mission-driven business - from hiring the right people, to resisting the pressure to scale too fast, to staying focused on outcomes instead of optics.

If you’re a sustainability founder, operator, or business leader trying to balance impact, growth, and long-term thinking, this episode offers grounded, practical insight.