“Father Mapple is in some strange, almost obscure way, a kind of negative double for Ahab,” says novelist and critic Charles Baxter in this episode of The World in Time. “Like Ahab, he is speaking from a great height. He begins his sermon by issuing orders. He tells all the congregants to sit down. And, you know, they have to listen to him. What other choice do they have? But what is important to me in ‘The Sermon’ is that he—how can I put this? He is the person who wants to bring a sense of proportion. And Ahab is the person who wants you to give up any sense of proportionality. It’s almost impossible to put things into perspective with Ahab. Father Mapple kind of supplies a warning and a possible lens for a reading of the entire novel. What Mapple is saying in his sermon, starting from the Book of Jonah, is that we have to learn humility. It is no use to flee from God. God will find us. And the last paragraph of ‘The Sermon’ is one of the most beautiful things, I think, that Melville ever wrote.” Charles Baxter, author most recently of Blood Test: A Comedy and Wonderlands: Essays on the Life of Literature, visits The World in Time to talk with Donovan Hohn about the politics and the mysteries of charisma in Moby-Dick. The conversation dwells on Chapter 9: “The Sermon,” in which Father Mapple, from his cockpit of a pulpit, pilots a congregation of New Bedford whalers through the theological storms of the Book of Jonah. Baxter and Hohn consider whether the novel affirms what Father Mapple preaches. They contrast his humble leadership with Captain Ahab’s narcissistic yet magnetic charisma. And they consider what both Ahab and a showman like P.T. Barnum might reveal about the charismatic confidence men who command our attention and our country today.