In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Ana Catarina Vieira de Castro, a researcher at the University of Porto (Portugal) specializing in canine behavior, welfare, and human–animal interactions, for a thoughtful discussion about one of the most contentious issues in modern dog training.

Catarina is well known for her research comparing reward-based (positive reinforcement) and aversive or mixed training methods. Her work is frequently cited within the force-free community, often as scientific support for calls to restrict or ban certain training tools through legislation.

Rather than dissecting individual papers line by line, our conversation focuses on the bigger and more difficult questions:

Do aversives have a place in dog training?

Are they effective, and under what conditions?

What are the welfare risks of using them improperly?

And just as importantly, what are the risks of removing them entirely through policy and legislation?

We explore how science, ethics, and real world practice intersect, especially in cases where idealized training models often break down.

Catarina’s published work including Carrots vs. Sticks (Applied Animal Behaviour Science), her PLOS ONE studies comparing training methods and welfare, and her contributions to the literature on stress, obedience, and the dog–owner bond forms the background context for why these questions matter beyond academic debate. These studies are widely referenced in discussions around regulation, bans, and professional standards, making it essential to talk not only about findings, but also about interpretation, limits, and unintended consequences.

Importantly, Catarina is also a dog trainer herself, which allowed this conversation to go beyond research settings and into the practical realities of working with real dogs.

This was also the first time a scientist whose work is so frequently cited in these debates was willing to sit down with me for an open, long form conversation, something that hasn’t been done in this space.

This episode is for trainers, behavior professionals, policymakers, and dog owners who want a deeper, more honest conversation about effectiveness, welfare, and the real risks on both sides of the training method debate.