This week on What the REF?!, Ola and James start to unpack the long-awaited REF announcement from December, sharing first reactions and a palpable sense of relief across the sector. While a full deep dive is parked until the new year, the episode offers an initial digest of what has landed, why certainty matters, and which debates are already bubbling up around outputs, narratives and research culture.

The real highlight, though, is a fascinating interview with Sophie Crouchman from Universities Human Resources (UHR), conducted by Simon. Sophie lifts the lid on the often unseen role of HR in REF preparation and delivery, from staff data and equality impact assessments to promotion criteria, reward structures and institutional culture. She makes a compelling case that, despite the technical language and frameworks, REF is ultimately about people, and HR colleagues are central to making it work.

The conversation explores workload, recognition, collaboration across professional services, and how HR teams support universities through constant policy change and uncertainty. It is a warm, insightful reminder that REF is a collective effort, powered by many roles that rarely get the spotlight. A cheerful, thought-provoking episode that celebrates the hidden work behind the headlines and sets the scene nicely for REF conversations in the year ahead.

Our hosts are all members of the Hidden REF committee based at the universities of Southampton and Bristol: Gemma Derrick - a self-confessed REF junkie - Simon Hettrick and Ola Thomson, and our producer is Ben Thomas.

Find out more about the HiddenREF campaign at Hidden-REF.org

'What the REF' is made possible by the Embedding Trust in Evaluation (E-TIE) research grant from Research England.

Want to get in touch? Email: WTreF@hidden-ref.org

WTreF is co-produced by Simon Hettrick, Gemma Derrick, James Baker and Ben Thomas. Video and Sound production by Ben Thomas.

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