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21 Hats Podcast
21 Hats
492 episodes
3 days ago
The 21 Hats Podcast presents an authentic weekly conversation with small business owners who are remarkably willing to share what’s working for them and what isn’t. Unlike many business podcasts, which tend to talk to highly successful entrepreneurs whose struggles are in the past, the 21 Hats Podcast features a rotating cast of business owners who are still very much in the trenches fighting the good fight. Every week, our regulars gather to talk about the kinds of important issues many owners won’t even discuss behind closed doors: whether their businesses are as profitable as they should be, whether they are willing to give up some control to an investor in order to grow faster, why they had to lay off employees, how they wound up with way too much inventory, why they don’t have a succession plan, and even why they are concerned about their own mental health. Visit 21hats.com to hear all of our podcast episodes, read episode transcripts, and learn more. The show is produced by Jess Thoubboron, founder of Blank Word.
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The 21 Hats Podcast presents an authentic weekly conversation with small business owners who are remarkably willing to share what’s working for them and what isn’t. Unlike many business podcasts, which tend to talk to highly successful entrepreneurs whose struggles are in the past, the 21 Hats Podcast features a rotating cast of business owners who are still very much in the trenches fighting the good fight. Every week, our regulars gather to talk about the kinds of important issues many owners won’t even discuss behind closed doors: whether their businesses are as profitable as they should be, whether they are willing to give up some control to an investor in order to grow faster, why they had to lay off employees, how they wound up with way too much inventory, why they don’t have a succession plan, and even why they are concerned about their own mental health. Visit 21hats.com to hear all of our podcast episodes, read episode transcripts, and learn more. The show is produced by Jess Thoubboron, founder of Blank Word.
Show more...
Entrepreneurship
Business,
News,
Business News,
Marketing
Episodes (20/492)
21 Hats Podcast
Do You Have the Stomach for This? 2025 in Review, Part 1
This week—and next week—we take a look back at the conversations we’ve had over the past year, highlighting some of our happiest, smartest, funniest, and most difficult exchanges, including Paul Downs on how he diced which employees to lay off, Jennifer Kerhin on asking ChatGPT to review her performance as CEO, Kate Morgan on why she’s been reluctant to raise her prices, Liz Picarazzi on her search for a domestic manufacturer for her trash enclosures, Ari Weinzweig on why Zingerman’s charges so much for a hamburger, and David C. Barnett on why your business is probably worth more to you owning it than selling it.
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3 days ago
1 hour 10 minutes

21 Hats Podcast
Dashboard: This Is Killing Small Businesses
As the year comes to a close, I often reach out to John Arensmeyer, who is founder and CEO of Small Business Majority, to get his take on the state of small businesses in America. The picture John paints this year, based on his own observations as well as a recent survey, is not pretty. He points to a host of issues -- health insurance, tariffs, immigration, cuts to federal programs -- every one of which can represent an existential threat to a business. John does note, however, that through it all, owners appear to remain surprisingly optimistic heading into 2026—even if that optimism speaks more to the resilience of business owners than it does to the economic outlook.
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1 week ago
21 minutes

21 Hats Podcast
Three Branches, Three Brands: Anatomy of a Rebrand
This week, special guest Rich Jordan takes us inside a marketing challenge presented by his successful acquisition of home services businesses. Do you keep the legacy names of those businesses to preserve local trust—at the cost of running a fragmented, inefficient marketing operation? Do you take the strongest brand you own and roll it out everywhere, even if it may not translate from one community to the next? Or do you wipe the slate clean and create an entirely new brand to unify the whole operation—knowing that it means walking away from money you’ve already sunk into branding your biggest location? In a conversation with Shawn Busse and Jay Goltz, Rich walks through how he wrestled with those choices, why he ultimately made the call he did, and what he learned along the way. His takeaways included that there are still people who listen to radio, that an authentic story can compete with private equity, and that it is possible to find a marketing agency that will align its interests with yours.
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1 week ago
44 minutes

21 Hats Podcast
Dashboard: Your Forecast Will Be Wrong. Do It Anyway
Most business owners know they should build a forecast for 2026. But many won’t—because it feels intimidating and time-consuming, and let’s be honest, it’s almost guaranteed to be inaccurate. This week, Tracy Bech, founder of The 60 Minute CFO, makes the case for why you should do it anyway. Tracy breaks the process down into three simple steps, shows how even a rough forecast can change the way you run your business, and explains how her free 60 Minute CFO Custom GPT can speed things up and expand your financial analysis. Her point isn’t that you can predict the future. It’s that you need a clear, flexible model to see whether your business is on track—or drifting somewhere you never intended to go.
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2 weeks ago
22 minutes

21 Hats Podcast
The Healthcare Dilemma: Protect Employees? Or the Business?
This week, in Episode 273, David C. Barnett, Paul Downs, and Sarah Segal tackle health insurance, one of the least enjoyable issues business owners confront. It’s renewal season, and the three owners are seeing different systems, different pressures, but similar frustrations. Paul tells us he’s facing the largest premium increases he’s seen since the Affordable Care Act—double-digit hikes that will cost him an extra $15,000 to $25,000 next year. Sarah hasn’t received her numbers yet, but she’s preparing for the worst. And David gives us a cross-border view from Canada, where universal coverage eliminates the pricing drama but introduces its own set of complications. It’s a candid conversation about what’s responsible, what’s sustainable, and what business owners are supposed to do when the numbers don’t leave good options. Plus: We also talk about what it takes to get a business ready to be sold. While BizBuySell recently reported that more owners are looking to get out—even if it means dropping their asking price—that’s not exactly what David is seeing in the marketplace. “The truth is that small businesses sell for relatively low multiples of cash flow,” he says. “And so, the real benefit is not actually in the exit. It's in the owning.”
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2 weeks ago
50 minutes

21 Hats Podcast
Dashboard: Tracking the Entrepreneurial Economy
This week, Brandon Gray, a partner with CRI Simple Numbers, talks about how his firm tracks the performance of what he calls the entrepreneurial economy. As we all know, what’s happening on Wall Street doesn’t always reflect what’s happening on Main Street, which is why Simple Numbers tracks the performance of 100 smaller businesses. Right now, Brandon says, the performance of those businesses isn’t looking great, which doesn’t necessarily bode well for 2026. How should an individual owner make use of that information? Brandon has some suggestions.
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3 weeks ago
33 minutes

21 Hats Podcast
Best of: We Charge What We Need to Charge
This week, we’re replaying one of my favorite conversations of the year, a Q&A session we recorded in May at our 21 Hats Live event in Ann Arbor, Michigan, with Ari Weinzweig, co-founder of Zingerman’s Community of Businesses. If you’ve already listened to our conversation with Ari, I encourage you to listen again. It’s worth it.

And if you haven’t heard it, well, you’re in for a treat. Much of the discussion focused on a topic that haunts just about every business owner, and that’s pricing. Specifically, Ari talked about how he learned to charge enough to run a healthy business and why he’d rather go out of business charging what Zingerman’s needs to charge than go out of business never knowing whether customers would have paid the true cost of great food and great service. (Spoiler alert: They have not gone out of business.)

Not surprisingly, the 21 Hats Live participants had lots of questions for Ari, including how he and his partners decide whether to launch a new business, how he and co-founder Paul Saginaw have maintained their partnership for more than 40 years, how he and Paul are approaching succession, and whether he thinks of himself as successful, which prompted Ari to share that his mother never stopped pleading with him to take the LSAT. You know, just in case.

We’re re-playing the episode in part because we took Thanksgiving week off from recording but also because it offers a little taste of what it’s like to attend a 21 Hats Live event. As you may have seen in the Morning Report, I’ve just announced that our fourth annual in-person event will take place in Cincinnati in May. Once again, it will be a terrific opportunity to connect with others who understand what it takes to build a business. If you’ve ever wished you could spend more time with people who really get what you’re going through, this is your chance. We will have peer group conversations on topics you help pick. We’ll get VIP tours of iconic local businesses. We’ll eat good food. We’ll build relationships. And we’ll leave inspired.

But spots are limited. For more information and to register, please check the newsletter I sent out on Sunday. Or shoot me an email, and I’ll make sure you get the invite. You can reach me at loren@21hats.com.
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3 weeks ago
58 minutes

21 Hats Podcast
Dashboard: Finding Employees Is Harder than Finding Customers
This week, Rob Levin, who is co-founder of WorkBetterNow and who has just published a new book, the “New Talent Playbook,” talks about what he considers to be a talent crisis for small businesses. As Rob points out, you might think hiring would be easy these days given all of the recent corporate layoffs—but the people leaving big businesses are probably not the right hires for smaller businesses. Instead, Rob offers a step-by-step approach that emphasizes building a healthy culture where people want to work.
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4 weeks ago
30 minutes

21 Hats Podcast
I Have to Figure This Sh*t Out
This week, in Episode 272, Liz Picarazzi and Jaci Russo compare notes with Ted Wolf on their very different journeys to integrate generative AI into their businesses. For Liz, it’s been frustrating. She resisted AI at first—but while she’s ready to go now, her COO, who also happens to be her husband, still isn’t there. That’s one reason Liz says she feels as though she’s been spinning her wheels. Jaci’s path couldn’t have been more different. She jumped in more than two years ago, took every course she could find, and now has custom GPTs talking to custom GPTs talking to custom GPTs. The AI tool she built delivers 10 fresh, fully vetted prospects to her inbox every morning. “It will find the person in charge of marketing,” she says. “It will find their LinkedIn profile. It will find the company website. It will find their competitors.” And it has already produced two new clients. Plus: As this especially challenging year winds down, Liz, Jaci, and Ted reflect on where their businesses hit expectations and where they fell short. Jaci notes a sales hire that failed. “I would have liked to have not spent the money on that person and had this epiphany without the pain,” she says, “but I think those two things just go hand in hand.” Liz cites her $400,000 tariff bill: “It really hurts, and it makes me angry,” she tells us. “But in terms of revenue, we’re doing well, I gotta admit. Thank God for New York City rats and trash.”
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1 month ago
48 minutes

21 Hats Podcast
Dashboard: Want More Domestic Manufacturing? Think Small
That’s the conclusion of Ilana Preuss, who is founder and CEO of Recast City and who believes that the way to bring back America’s Main Streets, downtowns, and local economies is through small-scale manufacturing. While traditional economic development focuses on what Preuss calls big-game hunting--recruiting big, established companies--she favors looking for ways to support even the smallest of businesses. How can a community do that? Step one, she says, is to find local manufacturers, talk to them, and find out what they need. Go figure!
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1 month ago
32 minutes

21 Hats Podcast
She Still Packs Every Order as if It’s a Gift
This week, in Episode 271, we welcome another new voice to the podcast: Channon Kennedy, who takes us inside the side hustle that’s become her second full-time job. Channon is the inventor and patent holder of the Morgan Square, a clever measuring tool—here’s a demonstration—that’s racking up awards, expanding its distribution, and carving out space for a woman founder in a traditionally male-dominated industry. This is a true bootstrap story. Channon’s numbers are modest enough that she still does most of her own fulfillment at night after her day job as a banker—and she loves it. “Every time I get an order,” she says, “I feel like I'm wrapping a Christmas present. I'm just so excited that somebody wants something that I've created.” Plus: Paul Downs checks in with an update. After posting his best year ever in 2024, he was blindsided when sales suddenly stalled earlier this year, forcing him to lay off a third of his employees. Sales have since rebounded, but now he’s staring at a backlog and a different dilemma: Does he hire aggressively to meet the higher demand—or play it safe until he sees how 2026 begins?
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1 month ago
45 minutes

21 Hats Podcast
Dashboard: Seeing Past the Workslop and Hallucinations
Yes, says Gene Marks, it’s easy to make fun of all of the ways in which AI chatbots can fail (don’t even think about asking them to create an image of a Yorkshire Terrier hitting a homerun), but that’s no excuse to sit on the sidelines. Get the paid version. Get some training. Get your employees some training. And get to work. On what? Gene gives some examples of his favorite use cases.
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1 month ago
30 minutes

21 Hats Podcast
Welcome to Employee Ownership! (Without the Hype)
This week, in Episode 270, we dig into employee ownership with two people who’ve lived it: Kris Maynard and Justin Jordan of Cathedral Holdings, a 100-percent employee-owned ESOP since 2011. Kris and Justin are enthusiastic proponents of ESOPs, but they’re also candid about what can go wrong. Yes, ESOPs come with big tax advantages. But the transaction can be complex. The debt can fundamentally change the risk profile of a business. And perhaps the most under-discussed challenge of all: not all employees embrace employee ownership. Some see it as little more than a glorified retirement plan. And here’s the thing: an ESOP can be a far riskier retirement plan than many understand. They differ from 401(k)s in that there's no regulation requiring an ESOP to sequester its employees’ retirement funds. If the company fails—and like all businesses, ESOPs do fail—those nest eggs can vanish. Kris and Justin explain how they’ve addressed these issues and what they might do differently if they were starting over. They also emphasize an important point: Not all ESOPs are created equal. “If you’ve seen one ESOP,” Justin likes to say, “you’ve seen one ESOP.”
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1 month ago
45 minutes

21 Hats Podcast
Dashboard: Turning Tradespeople Into Business People
This week, Julian Scadden explains how the organization he runs, Nexstar Network, helps the owners of plumbing, HVAC, and electrical firms become better business owners. Along the way, he discusses the challenges home-service businesses are confronting, why Nexstar is member-owned (and what that means), and an intriguing decision he made recently to part ways with the 30 percent of his members who are private-equity backed. Those members represented half the organization’s revenue at the time of the decision. I also ask Julian which is the better path: learning a trade and building a business or buying a business and figuring out the trade.
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1 month ago
29 minutes

21 Hats Podcast
I Thought It Was the Worst Day of My Life
This week, in Episode 269, we welcome Ted Wolf, co-founder of Guidewise, as the newest regular member of the 21 Hats Podcast crew—and Ted arrives with a pretty good story. Back when he was building his IT staffing business with his brother, a senior employee walked out. But he didn’t walk out alone—he took key employees, key accounts, and 40 percent of the company’s revenue. At the time, Ted thought it was the worst day of his business life. Turns out, he says, it was his best. Because that disaster forced him to rethink everything—how decisions get made, how profits get shared, how responsibility gets distributed. And that shift led not only to healthy growth but eventually to the kind of exit business owners dream about. That experience continues to inform the work Ted does today, helping companies integrate AI into their operations. The hard part, he tells Jennifer Kerhin, isn’t the technology—it’s the people. It’s managing the change, the fear, the implications. The technology matters, too. Ted and Jennifer also discuss whether small businesses should try to retrofit AI into their current tech stacks—or whether the smarter move, painful as it may be, is to start fresh.
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1 month ago
43 minutes

21 Hats Podcast
Dashboard: A Business Owner Chooses His Third and Final Act
Josh Patrick’s first act was building and eventually selling a successful vending-machine business. His second act was building a thriving consulting practice in which he helped other business owners learn the lessons he’d learned the hard way. In our latest Dashboard episode, Josh, a cancer survivor whose cancer has returned, is exploring two experiences—retirement and death—that he believes most owners are ill-prepared to confront. He’s planning to address that in his writing. As for himself, Josh tells us that he’s not afraid of death, but he is afraid of retirement.
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1 month ago
42 minutes

21 Hats Podcast
Should I Buy the Building? Or Stick to the Business?
This week, in episode 268, Jay Goltz, Lena McGuire, and Liz Picarazzi discuss a common concern: When does it make sense to buy a building for your business? Under the right circumstances—say, with an SBA loan, a good location, and a little luck—the real estate could end up being worth more than the business itself. But what if the business is just getting started? Or what if the owner is nearing retirement age and may not be around to reap decades of appreciation? Is buying the business still a good idea? Meanwhile, Liz and Lena also compare notes on their ever-evolving tariff challenges. One thing Lena has observed is that some owners in her industry have just had it. They don’t want to deal with the uncertainty, and they’re just packing it in: “We're going to see who survives all this,” she says, “and I want to be a survivor.” Plus: Liz has her first “aha” moment with an AI tool her team built, one that’s already helping convert sales.
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1 month ago
47 minutes

21 Hats Podcast
Dashboard: Even Made in the USA Manufacturers May Not Survive the Tariffs
This week, Greg Shugar, owner of Beau Ties, a men’s accessories business, explains how the tariffs have the potential to destroy the very businesses they are supposed to protect. As Shugar points out, President Trump has said all along that if you make it here, you won’t have to pay the tariffs. Well, Beau Ties makes it here -- but it has to import fabric from overseas because the silk fabric it needs is simply not produced here. And those imports are being taxed at a very high rate. At the moment, Shugar is waiting to hear whether Trump will indeed, as he has threatened, slap an additional 100-percent tariff on imports from China, which Shugar says could force him to shut down. The threat alone means that he can’t make plans two weeks out -- let alone start thinking about next year.
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2 months ago
35 minutes

21 Hats Podcast
Do You Want to Serve Clients—or Build a Business?
This week, in episode 267, David C. Barnett, Kate Morgan, and Sarah Segal tackle a challenge every owner who sells services eventually faces: Clients want to hire you, but you want them to understand they’ll mostly be working with your team. How do you make that clear without scaring them off? For some, it’s a delicate balancing act. For Kate, it’s simple: if a client insists on her personal time, she charges, in her words, “a boatload of cash.” Plus: we dive into another tricky owner decision: how to structure bonus plans that truly drive retention. David is weighing a deferred bonus approach, where payouts happen over several years. It’s a proven way to keep people around, but he wonders: Do you really want employees who’d otherwise leave to stay just for the money? Also, when valued employees get an offer, do you counter-offer? And if they leave, do you tell them they can always come back?
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2 months ago
46 minutes

21 Hats Podcast
Your Employees Want a Career Path. Can You Keep Them?
This week, in episode 266, David C. Barnett, Jay Goltz, and Kate Morgan wrestle with one of the trickiest challenges for business owners: how to give employees room to grow without losing sight of the company’s mission. David points out that every business is on its way to obsolescence unless it deliberately evolves—and one way to do that, he says, is by letting employees experiment and try new things. That approach, Jay says, is exactly what led to his building a furniture business. Plus: Kate and Jay agree that while many aspects of running a business can be stressful, nothing has been more stressful for them than the period when their businesses were growing the fastest. And the owners react to a Reddit post from someone who has found that hiring employees has created more problems than it has solved. “Is this just what having employees is like?” the owner writes. “Please tell me I'm not the only one losing my mind.”
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2 months ago
45 minutes

21 Hats Podcast
The 21 Hats Podcast presents an authentic weekly conversation with small business owners who are remarkably willing to share what’s working for them and what isn’t. Unlike many business podcasts, which tend to talk to highly successful entrepreneurs whose struggles are in the past, the 21 Hats Podcast features a rotating cast of business owners who are still very much in the trenches fighting the good fight. Every week, our regulars gather to talk about the kinds of important issues many owners won’t even discuss behind closed doors: whether their businesses are as profitable as they should be, whether they are willing to give up some control to an investor in order to grow faster, why they had to lay off employees, how they wound up with way too much inventory, why they don’t have a succession plan, and even why they are concerned about their own mental health. Visit 21hats.com to hear all of our podcast episodes, read episode transcripts, and learn more. The show is produced by Jess Thoubboron, founder of Blank Word.