Episode Summary: In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John continue their mini-series on developing others, widening the lens to explore the deeper mindsets that shape how leaders respond to challenges. Drawing from the model in Conscious Leadership, they unpack the four mindsets—To Me, By Me, Through Me, and As Me—and examine how each one influences the way we navigate difficulty, communicate, and develop the people around us. The conversation explores how easy it is for leaders to slip into a reactive To Me posture, especially in seasons of uncertainty or self-preservation. From there, they highlight how shifting toward By Me opens the door to agency, responsibility, and creativity—breaking the cycle of blame or helplessness. Josh and John also reflect on higher levels of leadership consciousness—operating Through Me or As Me—and what it means to move from control to presence, from tension to groundedness, and from reactivity to intentionality. They share personal stories, real-life examples, and moments of self-awareness that reveal the subtle but powerful nature of mindset shifts. The episode ultimately reminds leaders that developing others begins with developing ourselves. How we interpret our circumstances shapes how we show up, how we listen, and how we build capacity in the people we influence. Key Takeaways: Most leaders operate in “To Me” more than they realize.This reactive mindset amplifies stress and reduces agency, setting the tone for how we lead and develop others. Shifting to “By Me” unlocks creativity and ownership.The combination of responsibility, curiosity, and intentional choice breaks the Drama Triangle and restores empowerment. “Through Me” and “As Me” represent deeper, grounded presence.These states help leaders move from controlling outcomes to participating in them with clarity and calm. Self-preservation keeps leaders from developing others.When fear, fatigue, or insecurity take over, development gets replaced by protection, avoidance, or withdrawal. Small, consistent reframes create meaningful change.Leaders don’t need enlightenment—they need awareness in the moment and a willingness to take the next small step. Listener Homework: Identify one challenge you’re facing right now—something that feels heavy, unfair, frustrating, or stuck. Write down the story you are currently telling yourself about it (the “To Me” version). Then choose one small shift toward a “By Me” mindset. What question could you ask? What action is within your control? What perspective could open up agency instead of helplessness? Keep it small. Keep it honest. Keep it doable. Resources Mentioned: Conscious Leadership: The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership — Jim Dethmer, Diana Chapman, Kaley Warner Klemp The Drama Triangle — Dr. Stephen Karpman The 100X Leader — Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram Sacred Hoops — Phil Jackson (with Hugh Delehanty) What About Bob? — Frank Oz (Director)

Episode Summary: In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John kick off a new mini-series on one of the most essential—and misunderstood—skills of leadership: developing others. Building on their recent conversations about communication and self-awareness, they explore how our intentions to help can sometimes derail growth when we lead from the wrong mindset. Drawing from the Drama Triangle framework, they unpack three common leadership archetypes that show up under stress: the Persecutor (Villain), the Rescuer (Hero), and the Victim. Each has good intentions but can end up disempowering others, creating dependency, or spreading frustration. Through stories, humor, and reflection, they reveal what’s really happening beneath these patterns and how to shift toward healthier, growth-oriented postures: The Challenger (instead of the Persecutor) The Coach (instead of the Rescuer) The Creator (instead of the Victim) The episode reframes development as the act of fighting for others’ highest good. It challenges leaders to move from control to empowerment, from rescuing to equipping, and from “woe is me” to “what can we create together?” Key Takeaways: Awareness is the first act of development.Every leader can slip into the Drama Triangle. The goal isn’t perfection—it’s noticing when it happens and choosing a better response. Persecutors become Challengers.Replace micromanagement and blame with curiosity and accountability. Challenge others to own their growth. Rescuers become Coaches.Stop over-helping. Use questions and patience to guide others toward their own solutions instead of fixing for them. Victims become Creators.Trade helplessness for agency. Acknowledge the challenge, then focus on what’s within your power to move forward. Leadership development is love in action.Great leaders don’t remove struggle—they walk with others through it, building confidence and autonomy along the way. Listener Homework: Reflect on one person you currently lead, coach, or collaborate with. Which of the three Drama Triangle tendencies (Persecutor, Rescuer, Victim) do you most often fall into with them? What would it look like to flip that pattern this week—by becoming a Challenger, Coach, or Creator instead? Notice how that shift changes both your mindset and their engagement. If you’re not managing people right now, try this reflection with a teammate, family member, or friend. The same dynamics apply everywhere we influence others. Resources Mentioned: The Drama Triangle (Stephen Karpman) – the foundational model discussed in this episode. Radical Candor by Kim Scott – on the balance between care and challenge (“ruinous empathy” connects to the Rescuer pattern). A Failure of Nerve by Edwin H. Friedman – referenced by Josh for its insight on leadership courage and the “non-anxious presence.” The 100X Leader by Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram – for the “Sherpa mindset” of fighting for the highest good of others.

In this special episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John welcome their very first guest — Michael Sykes, founder and CEO of Equitable Solutions and author of Easy Equity. Michael brings warmth, wisdom, and candor to a conversation that explores what it truly means to lead from love. Together, they unpack how leadership begins with self-awareness and healing — and how that inner work ripples outward into teams, organizations, and communities. Michael shares stories from his own journey as a middle manager navigating conflicting expectations, and how mistakes, reflection, and intentionality helped him transform his approach to leadership. The conversation explores themes of affirmation, mindfulness, and manifestation, inviting leaders to align their “future self” with present actions. Michael challenges the idea that leadership is about control or charisma, instead defining it as removing barriers so others can thrive. From burnout to belonging, from self-denial to authenticity, this episode reminds us that the most sustainable and equitable leadership starts with loving ourselves well — so we can lead others with compassion, presence, and purpose. Check out Michael's work at https://equitablesolutions.net/ and follow him on LinkedIn as well. You can find his book Easy Equity for purchase on his site, too.  Key Takeaways Include: Leadership is about supporting your team, not just producing results. Finding joy requires intentionality and can be found in small moments. Authentic relationships are crucial for leveraging team strengths. Self-affirmation is key to effective leadership and personal growth. Manifestation involves aligning current actions with future goals. Emotional intelligence (EQ) is more important than intellectual intelligence (IQ) in leadership. Burnout often stems from misalignment with personal values and overextension. Leaders should prioritize self-care to avoid resentment and burnout. Mistakes are opportunities for growth and should be owned by leaders. Creating a positive environment starts with self-love and validation.

In this episode, Josh and John continue their exploration of communication—this time shifting from what we say to how we listen. Building on last week’s focus on the Communication Code, they unpack how defensiveness, distractions, and the pressure to sound competent can quietly sabotage genuine connection. Through personal stories and honest reflection, they explore how slowing down, summarizing, and removing noise are all acts of leadership, not just courtesy. They discuss the ripple effects of poor listening on trust, culture, and team engagement, and how small changes—like a pause before responding or a quick summary of what you heard—can completely reshape how people experience being led. Together, they reframe listening as a core leadership discipline that drives clarity, confidence, and connection. Key Takeaways: Silence communicates attentiveness and respect. Summarizing before responding builds alignment and trust. Leaders model active listening by removing distractions and creating space for others’ voices. Homework for Listeners:Take a few minutes this week to complete a quick Active Listening Audit.Rate yourself 1–5 on each statement and identify one area to strengthen. I let others finish speaking before I respond. I summarize what I heard before offering my view. I ask open-ended questions that deepen understanding. I minimize distractions—no screens, no multitasking. I clarify what the other person needs: empathy or solutions. I pause before speaking to fully process what I’ve heard. I follow up when needed to close the communication loop. Reflection Prompt:When was the last time you felt truly heard—and what might it take to create that experience for others? Mentioned in This Episode:The Communication Code – Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram, GiANT Worldwide  

In this episode, Josh and John unpack a deceptively simple but powerful truth: communication is both transmission and reception — and most leaders focus too heavily on the former. Drawing from the Communication Codeframework by GiANT Worldwide, they explore how intention, clarity, and receptivity shape every conversation — at work, at home, and in the spaces in between. They open with reflections on personal rhythms, learning events, and the importance of walking (for knees and for clarity) before diving into the art of setting conditions for effective communication. John shares insights from Simon Sinek’s “Know Your Why” and The Atlantic’s piece on distracted parenting, illustrating how modern distractions erode our ability to truly listen and receive. Josh introduces the five core intentions of communication — to care, celebrate, critique, clarify, and collaborate — and how naming these purposes can transform meetings, relationships, and team culture. Together, they break down how misalignment between intention and perception can derail trust, and how explicit communication framing helps teams stay connected and emotionally attuned. Key Takeaways: Communication is not complete without both transmission and reception. Setting the conditions for communication (minimizing distraction, clarifying intent) is foundational. The five communication codes—Care, Celebrate, Critique, Clarify, Collaborate—help leaders name the whybehind what they say. Explicitly naming your communication intent improves trust and reduces misinterpretation. Celebration and care are often undervalued but essential forms of communication that sustain team health. Homework for Listeners: In your next team meeting or 1:1, name the type of communication you’re using: Are you collaborating, clarifying, or critiquing? Are you showing care or celebration? Use this awareness to align your intent with how others receive it. And for an extra challenge — find a way to intentionally celebrate someone or something this week. Reflection Prompt: How often do you name your intention before communicating — and how might doing so change the way your message lands? Mentioned in This Episode: Simon Sinek – “Know Your Why” (video clip) The Atlantic (2018) – “The Dangers of Distracted Parenting” The Communication Code – Jeremie Kubicek & Steve Cockram, GiANT Worldwide Closing Quote: “Your job as a leader isn’t just to say what you mean — it’s to make sure it lands with your team.” – Josh Hugo

In this episode, Josh and John take a second pass at one of leadership’s most defining skills — communication. Moving beyond what we say to how and why we say it, they explore the motives, tendencies, and patterns that shape our words and impact our teams. Through real examples and archetypes, they help listeners identify what drives their communication habits and how self-awareness transforms connection and clarity. Key Themes & Takeaways Motives and tendencies: Awareness doesn’t erase them, but it helps leaders recognize and redirect them. Patterns and behavior: You can’t always change your wiring, but you can change your actions. Communication archetypes: The visionary, the perfectionist, and the over-talker — and what they reveal about leadership motives. Transmission and receiving: Great communication is both speaking and listening with intention. Be interested, not interesting: Curiosity builds trust more than charisma ever will. Memorable Quotes or Moments “Are you trying to be more interesting or more interested?” “Your motives aren’t going anywhere — but your patterns can change.” “You can’t delegate responsibility and still hold all the authority.” “Communication equals transmission plus receiving.” Homework / Reflection Take ten minutes this week to reflect — and write it down. Name one behavior you notice in the way you communicate (talking over, holding back, over-explaining, etc.). Ask yourself why: What’s the motive beneath it? What are you afraid of, avoiding, or trying to prove? Get feedback: Ask one trusted colleague or friend to describe how they experience your communication. Set an intention: Choose one way to practice being more interested than interesting in your next conversation.

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John dive into one of the most foundational—and often overlooked—skills of leadership: communication. Picking up from their exploration of performance and management, they shift focus to the ways leaders communicate with their teams, their peers, and their managers. The conversation unpacks a simple but powerful formula: Communication = Transmission + Reception. It’s not enough to just speak or listen—both have to work in tandem for true understanding. Josh and John frame today’s tension as the gap between accidental communication and intentional communication. Too often, leaders over-invest in the intentional while overlooking how much influence their “accidental” moments - or overall lack of self-awareness and intentionality about their communication - can have on team trust, alignment, and culture. Along the way, they share personal reflections on their own communication gaps—Josh’s tendency to over-talk as a verbal processor, John’s habit of letting facial expressions betray his thoughts—and highlight why building self-awareness is essential. They also introduce practical tools, linked below: Blindspotting – A model for uncovering motives and tendencies that drive leadership behaviors. The Five Voices – A personality-based framework for understanding your natural communication style and how others receive it. The big takeaway? Leaders need to narrow the gap between formal and informal communication by increasing self-awareness and choosing intentionality in both. Communication is the foundation of alignment, execution, and trust—and without it, even the best strategies fall flat.   Resources: Free 5 Voice Assessment and Report:  Click Here Blindspotting: Click Here

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John reflect on the central thesis of their podcast—leadership is about navigating polarities, not choosing sides. From transparency versus discretion to friendship versus professionalism, they dig into the tensions leaders constantly toggle between and how these dynamics shape team culture and effectiveness. Josh shares insights from Edwin Friedman’s A Failure of Nerve and the concept of self-differentiation, while John highlights the practical realities of leading through both collaboration and decisive direction. They also explore the Sherpa mentality from The 100X Leader, reframing leadership success as helping others reach the summit rather than chasing individual achievement. The conversation surfaces four key relational tensions managers face with their teams: Transparency vs. Discretion Friendship/Friendliness vs. Professionalism Collaboration vs. Decision-Making Advocacy vs. Directive Management Josh and John remind listeners that effective leaders don’t settle on one side of these spectrums—they learn to toggle with intentionality. The episode closes with a reflective exercise using two “thermometers”: one measuring how well you’re performing, and the other how well you’re leading performers. The challenge: notice gaps and identify where your leadership toggle might need to shift. Resources Mentioned: Feel free to check out two books referenced in this episode, as well: A Failure of Nerve, by Edwin Friedman  The 100x Leader,  by Steve Cockram and Jeremie Kubicek

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh Hugo and John Clark continue their multi-part series on identity shifts in leadership. Building on last week’s focus on how stepping into management reshapes relationships, today’s conversation zeroes in on one of the most critical dynamics for any middle manager: your relationship with your own manager. Josh and John explore what makes this relationship healthy and productive, starting with the foundation of trust and moving into practical elements like: High Support + High Challenge: Creating a liberating environment through balanced accountability and encouragement. Intentional Two-Way Communication: Ensuring not just that information is transmitted, but also truly received and understood. Autonomy + Accountability: Striking the right balance between independence and responsibility to your boss. Mutual Belief: Not just expecting your manager to believe in you, but actively showing belief in them. Managing Up: Bringing forward the realities of your team so your manager has the visibility needed to lead effectively. They also highlight common pitfalls that can derail this relationship—like unclear communication systems, falling into a “what have you done for me lately” mindset, or passively waiting to be developed—and offer strategies to avoid them. The episode closes with practical reflection tools for listeners: Conduct a two-way communication audit to identify and close gaps. Apply the Red-Yellow-Green framework to your current projects to clarify decision-making authority and opportunities for growth in autonomy. Several helpful resources were referenced in this episode.  See the links below for more information: Cory Scheer's book: Closing the Trust Gap.  Patrick Lencioni's book: The Advantage.      

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John dive into one of the most significant transitions leaders face: the shift in identity that comes with moving into management. Building on last week’s discussion around vision and internalization, they explore how stepping into leadership changes relationships with yourself, your peers, and your work. The conversation covers four key dynamics: The weight of authority – how new leaders experience both the responsibility and temptations of positional power. Stress and tendencies – why under pressure, managers often revert to old habits, and how intentional development can prevent missteps. “TIDKWIDT” (The I Don’t Know What I Did Today challenge) – the common struggle of defining success when the work shifts from doing tasks to guiding people. Vertical shifts in relationships – the reality that becoming “the manager” alters how peers and teams perceive and engage with you. Josh and John offer practical tools to navigate these changes, including the “Leader Mirror” (a framework for reflecting on reactivity, intentionality, and consistency) and the importance of building a trusted circle to provide honest feedback. They also invite listeners to share their own experiences with identity shifts in leadership, setting up future episodes on relationships with managers and direct reports. As always, the episode blends lived experience with practical strategies, making space for the tension of leadership while equipping mid-level leaders to grow with awareness and purpose.

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John explore the role of vision in leadership, especially for middle managers who often inherit rather than create vision. They emphasize the importance of fully internalizing and integrating vision into daily practices, even when you are already aligned. The conversation dives into the tension that arises when managers don’t fully agree with a vision. Josh shares a framework for self-reflection through the lens of self-preservation behaviors: asking What am I afraid of losing? What am I trying to hide? What am I trying to prove? John introduces the principle of “disagree and commit,” highlighting how leaders can create space for healthy debate, then unite in full commitment once a decision is made. The episode closes with four practical takeaways for managers: Internalize your organization’s vision so you can teach it. Integrate vision into daily conversations and priorities. Reflect on self-preservation tendencies that may cause resistance. Disagree and commit to build trust, alignment, and follow-through.

Leadership Limbo explores why management matters, reframing managers as catalysts who unlock strengths and drive organizational goals.

Episode Summary – Leadership Limbo In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John dig into the realities of “the middle” in leadership—focusing especially on middle management. They frame leadership through three paradigms: being in the middle of the org chart, navigating career transitions, and balancing the internal work of leading yourself while leading others. The conversation highlights the challenges and opportunities of middle management, from building credibility and shifting relationships, to getting results through others without falling into micromanagement. They also explore the tension of carrying out someone else’s vision, managing up while still supporting your team, and the identity shifts that come with moving into leadership roles. The hosts emphasize that management and leadership are not separate—managers must lead, and when done well, the role can be life-giving. They leave listeners with a reflective “3-2-1” exercise: 3 leadership successes, 2 current opportunities/challenges, 1 action step for next week. This episode offers practical insights, thought-provoking questions, and a reminder that leadership is about unlocking the potential of others while navigating the tensions of the in-between

In our very first episode, hosts Josh Hugo and John Clark unpack the concept of Leadership Limbo —leading from the “in-betwixt and in-between” spaces where most leadership actually happens. We explore why leadership from the middle matters, what “limbo” really means, and how to navigate the tensions of being responsible without full authority. Whether you’re an emerging leader, a middle manager, or a senior leader working to better support your team, this episode blends self-awareness, purpose-driven leadership, and practical tools to help you lead with clarity and influence. We share our personal journeys, reflect on lessons learned, and set the stage for the conversations and strategies to come. Key topics in this episode: Defining “limbo” and the in-betwixt and in-between of leadership Why leadership in the middle is different—and critical How influence matters more than authority Balancing self-reflection with actionable leadership strategies If you’ve ever felt caught between managing up and leading down, or you’re looking for ways to lead more effectively from where you are, this is where your journey starts.