It's our third annual Christmas special! Leah and Andrew are joined by returning guests Kelsey Kramer McGinnis and Daniel Gill. Everyone brought a Christmas song or two to celebrate and we even hear some picks from listeners. We've survived 2025. That's reason to celebrate. Daniel's 23 hour Christmas Playlist. Leave us a message at ‪(629) 204-4264‬. To join our Patreon community who make this show possible, go to https://patreon.com/rtdr You can always make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments. Buy RTDR merch here.

Co-host and producer Andrew Gill's day job is with Sound Opinions. He recently interviewed John Darnielle of The Mountain Goats, so we're doing a feed drop here of that episode.  To share a song pick for the Rock That Doesn't Roll Christmas Special, call ‪(629) 204-4264‬ and leave a message.  To join our Patreon community who make this show possible, go to https://patreon.com/rtdr -- John Darnielle of The Mountain Goats discusses his new book, "This Year: 365 Songs Annotated: A Book of Days" and his new album "Through This Fire Across From Peter Balkan" with Sound Opinions producer Andrew Gill. Find out more about Sound Opinions at Soundopinions.org 

Please enjoy this episode from a podcast we love: When We All Get To Heaven.  To share a song pick for the Rock That Doesn't Roll Christmas Special, call ‪(629) 204-4264‬ and leave a message.  To join our Patreon community who make this show possible, go to https://patreon.com/rtdr ---- In 1993, more than 10 years into the AIDS epidemic, the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco (MCC-SF) tries to remember all they’ve lost. We think about remembering too after encountering an archive of 1,200 cassette recordings of this queer church’s services during the height of the epidemic. Whether you’re a regular church goer or would never step into one, we invite you to spend time with this LGBTQ+ San Francisco church as it struggles to reconcile sexuality and faith in the midst of an existential crisis.  For images and links about this episode visit https://www.heavenpodcast.org/episode-1. About the montage: The worship service in this episode was on February 28, 1993. The Dyke March proclamation was written and read by Rev. Lea Brown. Rev. Karen Foster read the statement that sexual orientation does not need to be changed. Jim Mitulski recalled his hospital visit with the man who recognized him by his shape. Paul Francis told strangers at a restaurant to get ugly lovers and Eric Rofes told his mother that he was going to stay safe and keep having sex. Cleve Jones had the vision of a thousand rotting corpses, Rev. Ron Russell Coons preached that we have AIDS as a community, and Rev. Troy Perry proclaimed a revival on Eureka Street. The other people heard in the episode are either unknown or did not want to be named.    When We All Get to Heaven is produced by Eureka Street Productions. It is co-created by Lynne Gerber, Siri Colom, and Ariana Nedelman. Our story editor is Sayre Quevedo. Our sound designer is David Herman. Our managing producer is Krissy Clark. Tim Dillinger is our consulting producer and Betsy Towner Levine is our fact-checker. We had additional story editing help from Sarah Ventre, Arwen Nicks, Allison Behringer, and Krissy Clark. For a complete list of credits, please visit http://heavenpodcast.org/credits. This project received generous support from individual donors, the Henry Luce Foundation (www.hluce.org), the E. Rhodes and Leona B. Carpenter Foundation, and California Humanities, a non-profit partner of the National Endowment for the Humanities (www.CalHum.org). Eureka Street Productions has 501c3 status through our fiscal sponsor FJC: A Foundation of Philanthropic Funds. The music for this episode is from the Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco’s archive. It was performed by MCC-SF’s musicians and members with Bob Crocker and Jack Hoggatt-St.John as music directors. Additional music is by Tasty Morsels.  Thanks to Paul Katz and Henry Machen for permission to use “June in San Francisco” from their fabulous 1991 musical Dirty Dreams of a Clean Cut Kid. The estate of Leonard Bernstein for the use of “Somewhere” from West Side Story. 

In our season three finale, we tell the full story of Steve Scott's lost records that Larry Norman produced in 1978, but never released. Moving Pictures (and its companion Close Ups) were victims of short-sighted Christian music industry executives and a myriad of bad circumstances after being recorded and they have lived in lore among frustrated record collectors for decades. Now they are close to finally being released.  As Larry Norman was dying in 2008 he made a last request of his brother, who goes by Charles Normal, to ensure that the Steve Scott records be released someday. Charles has digitized the original tracks and mixed them for the first time and now he and Steve are raising money on Kickstarter to give the albums a proper release.  Steve and Charles join us today to tell the full story and play some of the never-before-published songs.  The Steve Scott Kickstarter --- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Want to contribute to our Christmas Special? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments. Buy RTDR merch here.

Todd Fadel is our guest this week. He is an individual whose life experiences defy easy categorization. He was the lead singer of a Star Wars-themed side project to Tooth and Nail grunge band Sometime Sunday. He was a worship leader at a non-traditional church in Portland, Oregon. He helped run TOMFest. He's also a big fan of Evie.  Most of our conversation in this episode is about his work running Meow Meow, an all-ages venue in Portland that straddled the Christian and secular music worlds in the early 2000s.  Adam Voith's novel in progress that is mentioned in this episode.  The film adaptation of Don Miller's best-selling book, Blue Like Jazz, is mentioned in this episode. It was directed by the legendary Steve Taylor.  --- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments. Buy RTDR merch here.

David Dark is a life-long Nashvillian and an admitted member of what he calls "The Prayer Trade" as a professor of religion and the arts at Belmont University. In 2002 he published his first book, "Everyday Apocalypse: The Sacred Revealed in Radiohead, The Simpsons, and Other Pop Culture Icons." At the time he was involved in The Art House along with Leah and Charlie Peacock.  Now David has reissued the book as "Everyday Apocalypse: Art, Empire, and the End of the World" or if you're a Swiftie "Everyday Apocalypse (David's Version)."  Hosts Andrew Gill and Leah Payne welcome David back to the show to discuss both editions of the book, his relationships with musicians inside and outside the Christian music industry and his depiction in the book "Body Piercing Saved My Life." --- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments. Buy RTDR merch here. -- PROMO SWAP: "When We Were on Fire" is a full-cast audio drama podcast based on the faith deconstruction memoir by Addie Zierman. Created by Lizzie Goldsmith, the podcast stars Aria Sivick as Addie, and features original music by Frank Sheffield. 

The English worship band Delirious (technically Deliriou5?) certainly changed church music and probably influenced a young Chris Martin of Coldplay, but was their lasting impact on music bigger than Nirvana's? That's the case made in a social media video by our guest today, Gabriel Wilson.  Wilson is a veteran of worship bands both as a musician and producer. He once toured with Delirious and has produced Delirious singer Martin Smith in the studio. He also has a deep respect for Nirvana. Andrew and Leah dig into his case for Delirious having a larger impact on music writ large than Nirvana.  Gabriel's Video --- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments. Buy RTDR merch here.

Aaron Carnes is an expert on ska, but is self-aware enough that his book (and podcast) are called In Defense of Ska. Like Christian rock, when folks admit to liking ska they often brace for being mocked. Aaron knows something about both worlds since he was only allowed to listen to CCM growing up.  This conversation is wide-ranging, covering the roots of ska (Madness didn't invent it), the waves of reinvention it has survived and how it was put to use by Christians to good effect (Five Iron Frenzy, The Israelites, Runforyerlife) and questionable effect (The OC Supertones, B.O.B.). Plus a little story about Sonseed. ---- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments. Buy RTDR merch here.

The Charlie Kirk Memorial in Arizona was a singular event that blended religion and politics in powerful ways. It featured a lot of Christian music. Brandon Lake, Chris Tomlin, Phil Wickham, Kari Jobe Carnes, Cody Carnes and Tiffany Hudson all led the 100,000 people in the stadium and estimated 20 million watching online in worship songs. To analyze what it means that these artists performed at this event and how their music functioned in the event, we're joined by Kelsey Kramer McGinnis and David Gate.  Kelsey Kramer McGinnis is a musicologist, worship music correspondent for Christianity Today, and co-author of The Myth of Good Christian Parenting: How False Promises Failed a Generation of Evangelicals. David Gate is a poet, writer and visual artist who used to lead worship in England, Ireland and the American South. His collection of poems and essays is called A Rebellion of Care. ---- Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments. Buy RTDR merch here.

After 15 weekly episodes in season 3, Leah and Andrew chat about what else they've been up to this fall, what episodes they've especially enjoyed this season, and what they're looking forward to in upcoming episodes. -- Register for Theology Beer Camp with our promo code RTDR for $75 off. Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments. Buy RTDR merch here.

Chris DeVille wrote the book on the indie rock boom (Such Great Heights: The Complete Cultural History of the Indie Rock Explosion), but before he became a self-confessed "indie snob" he was a willing listener of Christian rock. In this conversation we discuss the influence of Pitchfork on musical tastes and how specific signifiers could have an outsized impact on critical coverage in the blog era. Artists discussed include 4Him, Stavesacre, Sufjan Stevens, Pedro The Lion, Cameron Winter, Neutral Milk Hotel and, of course, Carman.  --- Register for Theology Beer Camp with our promo code RTDR for $75 off. Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments. Buy RTDR merch here.

In 1985 the Contemporary Christian Music industry reached a cultural height it would never regain. That's the basic case that Tim Dillinger has been making lately in his Substack, God's Music Is My Life. With artists like Amy Grant, Leslie Phillips, Sheila Walsh, Tramaine Hawkins and Rez Band pushing the boundaries of CCM from the inside, and mainstream acts like Maria Muldour and Mr. Mister pushing into CCM from the outside, 1985 was a year like no other, according to Tim. Would you believe that the downfall of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker's PTL empire in 1987 would reshape the Christian landscape for the worse? --- Register for Theology Beer Camp with our promo code RTDR for $75 off. Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments. Buy RTDR merch here.

Katie Thornton loves radio. Her series The Divided Dial has delved into conservative talk radio and shortwave. It won a 2023 Peabody Award. And her piece for Rolling Stone, "Jesus Take The Dial" goes in depth on CCM radio giant K-LOVE's operations.  We talk with Thornton about how K-LOVE's parent company has used its non-profit status to build a broadcasting behemoth and the downstream effects that has on American culture. We also discuss the Christian music she actually enjoys, her contrarian take on Bob Dylan and how K-LOVE compares to Salem Media Group, her main subject in season one of The Divided Dial.  --- Register for Theology Beer Camp with our promo code RTDR for $75 off. Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments. Buy RTDR merch here.

Ozzy Osbourne died in July. He was memorialized as the "Prince of Darkness" and was a key figure during the Satanic Panic of the 1980s. But our guest Jason P Woodbury points out that Osbourne's genius was in marrying heaven and hell- and if you listen closely, he's not as different from Christian rock as you might assume.  Jason P Woodbury is an editor of Aquarium Drunkard and hosts their podcast, Transmissions. He also makes music as JPW. --- Register for Theology Beer Camp with our promo code RTDR for $75 off. Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Want to respond to this episode? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments. Buy RTDR merch here.

Larry Norman thought another world was possible. Christians would make daring, artistic rock music. Mainstream musicians would make earnestly explore their spirituality in popular songs. He started a record label and an artist management company to make this a reality. And though he could see glimpses of this world, it was fully realized.  Gregory Alan Thornbury is our guest this week- in an interview recorded in 2022. He's Norman's biographer and an "erstwhile theologian" as he puts it. His 2018 book, Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music?: Larry Norman and the Perils of Christian Rock is a very thorough accounting of this singular artist. This episode highlights some of those "perils" referenced in the subtitle.  This is part two of the interview. Topics covered in this segment include the reaction of the mainstream rock industry to Larry Norman, Bob Dylan's born again era, the lasting effect of the Christian contemporary music industry on America and where we see this energy today. --- Register for Theology Beer Camp with our promo code RTDR for $75 off. Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app for a 30% discount) Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments. Buy RTDR merch here.

Larry Norman is widely recognized as the first Christian rock star. Recording with mainstream studio musicians The Wrecking Crew and later sharing a label with The Velvet Underground, Norman began his career singing explicitly about the values of evangelical Christianity on mainstream releases that didn't exactly light up the charts. But when Christian music publishers licensed his albums to sell in bookstores, sales went through the roof and the Christian Contemporary Music market was born.  Plus he wrote the song "The Rock That Doesn't Roll." Gregory Alan Thornbury is our guest this week- in an interview recorded in 2022. He's Norman's biographer and an "erstwhile theologian" as he puts it. His 2018 book, Why Should the Devil Have All the Good Music?: Larry Norman and the Perils of Christian Rock is a very thorough accounting of this singular artist.  This interview is being presented in two parts. This is part one, covering Norman's early life, views on race, the origins of his "One Way" symbol, his fall from favor with the Christian industry and his free-spirited wife, Pamela Ahlquist. --- Register for Theology Beer Camp with our promo code RTDR for $75 off. Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app) Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments. Buy RTDR merch here.

Nathan Evans Fox is a country music artist, but he has a deep background with Christian music. In his viral hit single "Hillbilly Hymn" he brings the biblical concept of jubilee into the rural gas station.  Find more of Nathan's music here and look for his podcast "Yallidarity Social Club" soon.  --- Register for Theology Beer Camp with our promo code RTDR for $75 off. Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app) Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments. Buy RTDR merch here.

Derek Webb was part of a remarkable success story with Caedmon's Call in the late '90s. But the more success he witnessed, the less he could keep quiet. Now in his solo career he stands confidently alongside the marginalized, even attending the Dove Awards in a dress.  Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app) Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments. Buy RTDR merch here.

In season two of Shiny Happy People, the Amazon Prime Original docu-series turns its focus to Teen Mania Ministries, the organization that made Acquire The Fire stadium events. These events are described in the series as "youth group Coachella." But Christian music was just the tip of the iceberg with Teen Mania.  To unpack the series, Andrew is joined by Krispin Mayfield, a fellow podcaster and licensed therapist who specializes in helping people with religious trauma.  Learn more about Krispin at krispinmayfield.com and his current podcast project, Strongwilled, at Substack: strongwilled.substack.com Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app) Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments. Buy RTDR merch here.

Glenn Kaiser has had a huge influence on Christian music as a musician, a festival co-founder and an outspoken thought leader. He was our top guest choice for our live taping in January of 2025 in Chicago. While Glenn Kaiser is a singular figure in the world of Christian music, we are aware that Jesus People USA is a triggering topic for some listeners. For a more thorough examination of Jesus People USA check out the book Grey Sabbath or for the perspective of abuse survivors from JPUSA, the film No Place To Call Home. This interview does not go into the topic of abuse, but we gave Glenn the opportunity to address it via email. He said, "The sad reality is sins of abuse, etc. happen and how to best respond to such regardless is a long work that has progressed for us. Over the past decade we've established several professional safeguards to ensure the safety of children and policies to address it. All in leadership and most in the wider fellowship have completed courses re. abuse and are mandated reporters." Do you have a Christian rock story to tell? Leave us a message at (629) 777-6336. If Rock That Doesn’t Roll is important to you, support us on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/rtdr (join via the website, not the iOS app) Or make a one-time donation: https://coff.ee/rtdr If you can't afford a donation, please tell five friends about the show. You can connect with us on Instagram or by emailing RTDRpod@gmail.com Sign up for our Substack to keep up with show developments. Buy RTDR merch here.