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Scaling Laws
Lawfare & University of Texas Law School
190 episodes
5 days ago
Scaling Laws explores (and occasionally answers) the questions that keep OpenAI’s policy team up at night, the ones that motivate legislators to host hearings on AI and draft new AI bills, and the ones that are top of mind for tech-savvy law and policy students. Co-hosts Alan Rozenshtein, Professor at Minnesota Law and Research Director at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas and Senior Editor at Lawfare, dive into the intersection of AI, innovation policy, and the law through regular interviews with the folks deep in the weeds of developing, regulating, and adopting AI. They also provide regular rapid-response analysis of breaking AI governance news.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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All content for Scaling Laws is the property of Lawfare & University of Texas Law School and is served directly from their servers with no modification, redirects, or rehosting. The podcast is not affiliated with or endorsed by Podjoint in any way.
Scaling Laws explores (and occasionally answers) the questions that keep OpenAI’s policy team up at night, the ones that motivate legislators to host hearings on AI and draft new AI bills, and the ones that are top of mind for tech-savvy law and policy students. Co-hosts Alan Rozenshtein, Professor at Minnesota Law and Research Director at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas and Senior Editor at Lawfare, dive into the intersection of AI, innovation policy, and the law through regular interviews with the folks deep in the weeds of developing, regulating, and adopting AI. They also provide regular rapid-response analysis of breaking AI governance news.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Government
News,
Politics,
Tech News
Episodes (20/190)
Scaling Laws
A Year That Felt Like a Decade: 2025 Recap with Sen. Maroney & Neil Chilson

Connecticut State Senator James Maroney and Neil Chilson, Head of AI Policy at the Abundance Institute, join Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, and Alan Rozenstein, Associate Professor at Minnesota Law and Research Director at Lawfare, for a look back at a wild year in AI policy.

 

Neil provides his expert analysis of all that did (and did not) happen at the federal level. Senator Maroney then examines what transpired across the states. The four then offer their predictions for what seems likely to be an even busier 2026. 











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5 days ago
53 minutes 48 seconds

Scaling Laws
Cass Sunstein on What AI Can and Cannot Do

Alan Z. Rozenshtein, Lawfare senior editor and associate professor of law the University of Minnesota, speaks with Cass Sunstein, the Robert Walmsley University Professor at Harvard University, about his new book, Imperfect Oracle: What AI Can and Cannot Do. They discuss when we should trust algorithms over our own judgment, why AI can eliminate the noise and bias that plague human decision-making but can't predict revolutions, cultural hits, or even a coin flip—and, perhaps most importantly, when it makes sense to delegate our choices to AI and when we should insist on deciding for ourselves.











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1 week ago
43 minutes 3 seconds

Scaling Laws
AI Chatbots and the Future of Free Expression with Jacob Mchangama and Jacob Shapiro

Renée DiResta, Lawfare contributing editor and associate research professor at Georgetown's McCourt School of Public Policy, and Alan Z. Rozenshtein, Lawfare senior editor and associate professor of law the University of Minnesota, spoke with Jacob Mchangama, research professor of political science at Vanderbilt University and founder of The Future of Free Speech, and Jacob Shapiro, the John Foster Dulles Professor of International Affairs at Princeton University.

 

The conversation covered the findings of a new report examining how AI models handle contested speech; comparative free speech regulations across six jurisdictions; empirical testing of how major chatbots respond to politically sensitive prompts; and the tension between free expression principles and concerns about manipulation in AI systems.




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2 weeks ago
53 minutes 51 seconds

Scaling Laws
Rapid Response on the AI Preemption Executive Order

In this rapid response episode, Lawfare senior editors Alan Rozenshtein and Kevin Frazier and Lawfare Tarbell fellow Jakub Kraus discuss President Trump's new executive order on federal preemption of state AI laws, the politics of AI regulation and the split between Silicon Valley Republicans and MAGA populists, and the administration's decision to allow Nvidia to export H200 chips to China.

 

 Mentioned in this episode:

  • Executive Order: Ensuring a National Policy Framework for Artificial Intelligence
  • Charlie Bullock, "Legal Issues Raised by the Proposed Executive Order on AI Preemption," Institute for Law & AI











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3 weeks ago
56 minutes 12 seconds

Scaling Laws
Graham Dufault on small businesses and navigating EU AI laws

Graham Dufault, General Counsel at ACT | The App Association, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to explore how small- and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) are navigating the EU's AI regulatory framework. The duo breakdown the Association's recent survey of SMEs, which included the views of more than 1,000 enterprises and assessed their views on regulation and adoption of AI.

 

Follow Graham: @GDufault and ACT | The App Association: @actonline


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3 weeks ago
45 minutes 17 seconds

Scaling Laws
Caleb Withers on the Cybersecurity Frontier in the Age of AI

Caleb Withers, a researcher at the Center for a New American Security, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss how frontier models shift the balance in favor of attackers in cyberspace. The two discuss how labs and governments can take steps to address these asymmetries favoring attackers, and the future of cyber warfare driven by AI agents.Jack Mitchell, a student fellow in the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law, provided excellent research assistance on this episode.


Check out Caleb’s recent research here.


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1 month ago
48 minutes 17 seconds

Scaling Laws
A Startup's Perspective on AI Policy

Andrew Prystai, CEO and co-founder of Vesta, and Thomas Bueler-Faudree, co-founder of August Law, join Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to think through AI policy from the startup perspective. 

 

Andrew and Thomas are the sorts of entrepreneurs that politicians on both sides of the aisle talk about at town halls and press releases. They’re creating jobs and pushing the technological frontier. So what do they want AI policy leaders to know as lawmakers across the country weigh regulatory proposals?

 

That’s the core question of the episode. Giddy up for a great chat!

 

Learn more about the guests and their companies here:

Andrew's Linkedin, Vesta's Linkedin

Thomas’s LinkedIn, August’s LinkedIn


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1 month ago
51 minutes 48 seconds

Scaling Laws
Anthropic's General Counsel, Jeff Bleich, Explores the Intersection of Law, Business, and Emerging Technology

Jeff Bleich, General Counsel at Anthropic, former Chief Legal Officer at Cruise, and former Ambassador to Australia during the Obama administration, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to get a sense of how the practice of law looks at the edge of the AI frontier.


The two also review how Jeff’s prior work in the autonomous vehicle space prepared him for the challenges and opportunities posed by navigating legal uncertainties in AI governance.


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1 month ago
36 minutes 51 seconds

Scaling Laws
The AI Economy and You: How AI Is, Will, and May Alter the Nature of Work and Economic Growth with Anton Korinek, Nathan Goldschlag, and Bharat Chander

Anton Korinek, a professor of economics at the University of Virginia and newly appointed economist to Anthropic's Economic Advisory Council, Nathan Goldschlag, Director of Research at the Economic Innovation Group, and Bharat Chander, Economist at Stanford Digital Economy Lab, join Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to sort through the myths, truths, and ambiguities that shape the important debate around the effects of AI on jobs. 


We discuss what happens when machines begin to outperform humans in virtually every computer-based task, how that transition might unfold, and what policy interventions could ensure broadly shared prosperity.


These three are prolific researchers. Give them a follow to find their latest works.


Anton: @akorinek on X

Nathan: @ngoldschlag and @InnovateEconomy on X

Bharat: X: @BharatKChandar, LinkedIn: @bharatchandar, Substack: @bharatchandar


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1 month ago
43 minutes 56 seconds

Scaling Laws
Anthropic's Gabriel Nicholas Analyzes AI Agents

Gabriel Nicholas, a member of the Product Public Policy team at Anthropic, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to introduce the policy problems (and some solutions) posed by AI agents. Defined as AI tools capable of autonomously completing tasks on your behalf, it’s widely expected that AI agents will soon become ubiquitous. The integration of AI agents into sensitive tasks presents a slew of technical, social, economic, and political questions. Gabriel walks through the weighty questions that labs are thinking through as AI agents finally become “a thing.”











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2 months ago
48 minutes 50 seconds

Scaling Laws
The GoLaxy Revelations: China's AI-Driven Influence Operations, with Brett Goldstein, Brett Benson, and Renée DiResta

Alan Rozenshtein, senior editor at Lawfare, spoke with Brett Goldstein, special advisor to the chancellor on national security and strategic initiatives at Vanderbilt University; Brett Benson, associate professor of political science at Vanderbilt University; and Renée DiResta, Lawfare contributing editor and associate research professor at Georgetown University's McCourt School of Public Policy.


The conversation covered the evolution of influence operations from crude Russian troll farms to sophisticated AI systems using large language models; the discovery of GoLaxy documents revealing a "Smart Propaganda System" that collects millions of data points daily, builds psychological profiles, and generates resilient personas; operations targeting Hong Kong's 2020 protests and Taiwan's 2024 election; the fundamental challenges of measuring effectiveness; GoLaxy's ties to Chinese intelligence agencies; why detection has become harder as platform integrity teams have been rolled back and multi-stakeholder collaboration has broken down; and whether the United States can get ahead of this threat or will continue the reactive pattern that has characterized cybersecurity for decades.


Mentioned in this episode:


  • "The Era of A.I. Propaganda Has Arrived, and America Must Act" by Brett J. Goldstein and Brett V. Benson (New York Times, August 5, 2025)
  • "China Turns to A.I. in Information Warfare" by Julian E. Barnes (New York Times, August 6, 2025)
  • "The GoLaxy Papers: Inside China's AI Persona Army" by Dina Temple-Raston and Erika Gajda (The Record, September 19, 2025)
  • "The supply of disinformation will soon be infinite" by Renée DiResta (The Atlantic, September 2020)



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2 months ago
55 minutes 26 seconds

Scaling Laws
Sen. Scott Wiener on California Senate Bill 53

California State Senator Scott Wiener, author of Senate Bill 53--a frontier AI safety bill--signed into law by Governor Newsom earlier this month, joins Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor at Minnesota Law and Research Director at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to explain the significance of SB 53 in the large debate about how to govern AI.

The trio analyze the lessons that Senator Wiener learned from the battle of SB 1047, a related bill that Newsom vetoed last year, explore SB 53’s key provisions, and forecast what may be coming next in Sacramento and D.C.


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2 months ago
49 minutes 6 seconds

Scaling Laws
AI and Energy: What do we know? What are we learning?

Mosharaf Chowdhury, associate professor at the University of Michigan and director of the ML Energy lab, and Dan Zhao, AI researcher at MIT, GoogleX, and Microsoft focused on AI for science and sustainable and energy-efficient AI, join Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss the energy costs of AI. 

 

They break down exactly how much a energy fuels a single ChatGPT query, why this is difficult to figure out, how we might improve energy efficiency, and what kinds of policies might minimize AI’s growing energy and environmental costs. 

 

Leo Wu provided excellent research assistance on this podcast.

 

Read more from Mosharaf:

https://ml.energy/ 

https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/05/20/1116327/ai-energy-usage-climate-footprint-big-tech/

 

Read more from Dan:

https://arxiv.org/abs/2310.03003’

https://arxiv.org/abs/2301.11581


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2 months ago
51 minutes 32 seconds

Scaling Laws
AI Safety Meet Trust & Safety with Ravi Iyer and David Sullivan

David Sullivan, Executive Director of the Digital Trust & Safety Partnership, and Rayi Iyer, Managing Director of the Psychology of Technology Institute at USC’s Neely Center, join join Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss the evolution of the Trust & Safety field and its relevance to ongoing conversations about how best to govern AI.  

 

They discuss the importance of thinking about the end user in regulation, debate the differences and similarities between social media and AI companions, and evaluate current policy proposals.

 

You’ll “like” (bad pun intended) this one.

 

Leo Wu provided excellent research assistance to prepare for this podcast.

 

Read more from David:

https://www.weforum.org/stories/2025/08/safety-product-build-better-bots/

https://www.techpolicy.press/learning-from-the-past-to-shape-the-future-of-digital-trust-and-safety/

 

Read more from Ravi:

https://shows.acast.com/arbiters-of-truth/episodes/ravi-iyer-on-how-to-improve-technology-through-design

https://open.substack.com/pub/psychoftech/p/regulate-value-aligned-design-not?r=2alyy0&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false 

 

Read more from Kevin:

https://www.cato.org/blog/california-chatroom-ab-1064s-likely-constitutional-overreach


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2 months ago
46 minutes 40 seconds

Scaling Laws
Rapid Response: California Governor Newsom Signs SB-53
In this Scaling Laws rapid response episode, hosts Kevin Frazier and Alan Rozenshtein talk about SB-53, the frontier AI transparency (and more) law that California Governor Gavin Newsom signed into law on September 29.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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3 months ago
36 minutes 22 seconds

Scaling Laws
The Ivory Tower and AI (Live from IHS's Technology, Liberalism, and Abundance Conference).

Neil Chilson, Head of AI Policy at the Abundance Institute, and Gus Hurwitz, Senior Fellow and CTIC Academic Director at Penn Carey Law School and Director of Law & Economics Programs at the International Center for Law & Economics, join Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to explore how academics can overcome the silos and incentives that plague the Ivory Tower and positively contribute to the highly complex, evolving, and interdisciplinary work associated with AI governance.

 

The trio recorded this podcast live at the Institute for Humane Studies’s Technology, Liberalism, and Abundance Conference in Arlington, Virginia.


Read about Kevin's thinking on the topic here: https://www.civitasinstitute.org/research/draining-the-ivory-tower

Learn about the Conference: https://www.theihs.org/blog/curated-event/technology-abundance-and-liberalism/


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3 months ago
42 minutes 33 seconds

Scaling Laws
AI and Young Minds: Navigating Mental Health Risks with Renee DiResta and Jess Miers
Alan Rozenshtein, Renee DiResta, and Jess Miers discuss the distinct risks that generative AI systems pose to children, particularly in relation to mental health. They explore the balance between the benefits and harms of AI, emphasizing the importance of media literacy and parental guidance. Recent developments in AI safety measures and ongoing legal implications are also examined, highlighting the evolving landscape of AI regulation and liability.

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3 months ago
58 minutes 50 seconds

Scaling Laws
AI Copyright Lawsuits with Pam Samuelson

On today's Scaling Laws episode, Alan Rozenshtein sat down with Pam Samuelson, the Richard M. Sherman Distinguished Professor of Law at the University of California, Berkeley, School of Law, to discuss the rapidly evolving legal landscape at the intersection of generative AI and copyright law. They dove into the recent district court rulings in lawsuits brought by authors against AI companies, including Bartz v. Anthropic and Kadrey v. Meta. They explored how different courts are treating the core questions of whether training AI models on copyrighted data is a transformative fair use and whether AI outputs create a “market dilution” effect that harms creators. They also touched on other key cases to watch and the role of the U.S. Copyright Office in shaping the debate.

 

Mentioned in this episode:

  • "How to Think About Remedies in the Generative AI Copyright Cases"
  • by Pam Samuelson in Lawfare
  • Andy Warhol Foundation for the Visual Arts, Inc. v. Goldsmith
  • Bartz v. Anthropic
  • Kadrey v. Meta Platforms
  • Thomson Reuters Enterprise Centre GmbH v. Ross Intelligence Inc.
  • U.S. Copyright Office, Copyright and Artificial Intelligence, Part 3: Generative AI Training



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3 months ago
59 minutes 5 seconds

Scaling Laws
AI and the Future of Work: Joshua Gans on Navigating Job Displacement

Joshua Gans, a professor at the University of Toronto and co-author of "Power and Prediction: The Disruptive Economics of Artificial Intelligence," joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to evaluate ongoing concerns about AI-induced job displacement, the likely consequences of various regulatory proposals on AI innovation, and how AI tools are already changing higher education.


Select works by Gans include:

A Quest for AI Knowledge (https://www.nber.org/papers/w33566)

Regulating the Direction of Innovation (https://www.nber.org/papers/w32741)

How Learning About Harms Impacts the Optimal Rate of Artificial Intelligence Adoption (https://www.nber.org/papers/w32105)


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3 months ago
57 minutes 56 seconds

Scaling Laws
The State of AI Safety with Steven Adler

Steven Adler, former OpenAI safety researcher, author of Clear-Eyed AI on Substack, and independent AGI-readiness researcher, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law, to assess the current state of AI testing and evaluations. The two walk through Steven’s views on industry efforts to improve model testing and what he thinks regulators ought to know and do when it comes to preventing AI harms.

 

You can read Steven’s Substack here: https://stevenadler.substack.com/

 

Thanks to Leo Wu for research assistance!


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3 months ago
47 minutes 23 seconds

Scaling Laws
Scaling Laws explores (and occasionally answers) the questions that keep OpenAI’s policy team up at night, the ones that motivate legislators to host hearings on AI and draft new AI bills, and the ones that are top of mind for tech-savvy law and policy students. Co-hosts Alan Rozenshtein, Professor at Minnesota Law and Research Director at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas and Senior Editor at Lawfare, dive into the intersection of AI, innovation policy, and the law through regular interviews with the folks deep in the weeds of developing, regulating, and adopting AI. They also provide regular rapid-response analysis of breaking AI governance news.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.