Pat Lencioni, founder of The Table Group and bestselling author behind The Five Dysfunctions of a Team and The 6 Types of Working Genius, joined us on The Modern People Leader.
We talked about his origin story in organizational health, how Working Genius helps leaders prevent burnout by designing teams around strengths, and how HR leaders can build trust and stay grounded as AI reshapes work.
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Downloadable PDF with top takeaways: https://modernpeopleleader.kit.com/episode273
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(06:30) Pat’s origin story: why he started doing organizational health work
(15:06) What Pat has changed his mind on over time (patience vs immediate confrontation)
(16:24) Trust + “Five Dysfunctions” discussion (why absence of trust breaks everything)
(19:54) What sparked the “6 types of Working Genius” model
(24:50) Burnout comes from doing draining work too long, not just “working hard”
(29:19) The “Yeti mug vs hole in the cup” analogy (genius, competency, frustration)
(39:25) CEO burnout cycle: suffering for others vs martyrdom, and designing coverage for what you don’t have
(42:49) Using Working Genius for teams and hiring (cover gaps; hire for needed “genius,” not title)
(47:30) Pat’s take on AI: different “types” of AI + the dignity of work and the human touch
(52:53) 5–10 year outlook: job disruption, and using Working Genius to stay adaptable across industries
(54:09) Trust in an AI era: fear, headcount signals, and how leaders rebuild trust
(57:55) Leadership style + authenticity: lead from who you are, name strengths/weaknesses openly
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Past guests on MPL include Brené Brown, Annie Dean (VP of Team Anywhere, Atlassian), Josh Bersin, Katie Burke (Chief People Officer, Harvey), Liz Fosslien, Helen Russell (Chief People Officer, HubSpot), Dave Scott (Chief People Officer, ADT), Melanie Rossenwasser (Chief People Officer, Dropbox), Crystal Boysen (Chief People Officer, Sprout Social), and many more.