As we try to wind down this year, Rohin and Praveen do something they’ve never done before: go through every single episode they recorded this year. All 48 of them. In 60 minutes.
The rules were simple. Each host had 10 points to build their personal top 10 list for the year. No take-backs, and no pre-discussion. It was a completely live, vibe-based recording where they figured it out as they went.
What follows is a rapid-fire sprint through the year. From Amazon India’s struggles to the electric car slowdown, from B-school placements to the rise of quick commerce dark stores, and from Razorpay versus Juspay to the chaos of concert infrastructure in India. They cover it all—the hits, the misses, the prescient calls, and the episodes they wish had gone differently.
Along the way, they debate whether episodes were too speculative, too early, or just not memorable enough. By the end, they’re locked in a tight race with only five episodes left and one point each remaining.
Because it wouldn't be Two by Two without a matrix, we plotted the results of their debate. Take a look at the graphic to see which episodes they both loved (the green zone) versus their personal favourites.
It is chaotic, nostalgic, and a perfect preview of what 2025 looked like through the lens of Two by Two.
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This episode was produced by Uddantika Kashyap and mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer.
With 48 episodes in the books, this is the perfect starting point for anyone looking to catch up on the defining business stories of 2025. If you liked this sprint through the year, please share it with someone who loves a good deep dive.
Have your own "vibe-based" arguments about our list? We’re all ears. Reach out at twobytwo@the-ken.com or leave a comment.
The popular narrative often blames Gen Z for a lack of ambition, but is it the millennials who are truly suffering from “ambition fatigue”?
This week on Two by Two, the conversation takes its lead from The Ken’s deputy editor, Arundhati Ramanathan’s recent and concerning article, “Indian Tech Companies are Spawning an Ambitionless Generation”.
Hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan sit down to discuss how to solve this cross-generational problem and bring the “fire back in the belly”, with or without burning the midnight lamp.
They explore the striking ambition gap between driven founders/CEOs and their often-indifferent employees. Is this growing apathy a fault of the corporate environment and a lack of opportunity, or is the responsibility for finding purpose solely on the individual?
Can the corporate world reignite ambition, and can it truly rise from the dead? Joining the hosts to tackle this multifold issue are three experts:
Gaston is a partner/executive and founder coach at the Asian Leadership Institute, guiding senior executives at Fortune 500 companies and high-growth startup founders across 30+ countries. With over 20,000 hours of experience, he employs a personalised approach rooted in mindfulness and neuroscience to help leaders expand their perspective and identify blind spots.
Vipul is the director of product marketing at Databahn. His professional history includes significant roles at major fintech platforms, including a tenure as director of product marketing at Cashfree Payments and product marketing manager at Razorpay. Additionally, Nanda is the co-founder of the GoPMM community for product marketers in India and holds an advisory position with Antler.
Arundhati is the deputy editor at The Ken. Based in Bengaluru, she is a seasoned journalist who focuses on in-depth, long-form stories about India's startup ecosystem, entrepreneurship, and the fintech industry. Her work often explores the significant trends and challenges impacting the tech landscape, such as venture capital, founder strategies, and shifts in workforce dynamics.
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Additional reading:
‘Indian Tech Companies are Spawning an Ambitionless Generation’ by Arundhati Ramanathan
https://the-ken.com/story/indian-tech-companies-are-spawning-an-ambitionless-generation/?t=251112092335
Last episode Gaston was in- ‘Where AI can and can’t replace human coaching’
https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/where-ai-can-and-cant-replace-human-coaching/
Warren Buffet’s shareholder letters
https://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/letters.html
Marshall Goldsmith’s 6 daily questions
https://www.marshallgoldsmith.com/post/six-daily-questions
The Three Signs of a Miserable Job: A Fable for Managers by Patrick Lencioni
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/749937.The_Three_Signs_of_a_Miserable_Job
Finite and Infinite Games by James P. Carse
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/189989.Finite_and_Infinite_Games
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This episode was mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer.
If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends, family and colleagues who would be interested in listening. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we’d love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.
What is the “listing pop” that everyone is chasing, and does it still matter six months later? This simple question is the starting point for a deep look into the current boom in the Indian Initial Public Offering (IPO) market. Despite a massive influx of investor wealth, the standards for companies going public have significantly dropped.
In this episode of Two by Two, co-hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan are joined by their colleagues, The Ken’s finance editor, Anand Kalyanaraman, and deputy editor, Seetharaman G to explore how the initial “IPO event” relates to a company’s long-term performance. They discuss how high valuations from private investors are merely being validated at the public listing. They also examine the rise of “flipping”—the practice of quickly selling IPO shares for a profit—a tactic now accepted by many large institutions as just part of “the game”.
The episode of Two by Two was mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer.
If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends, colleagues, and anyone else who might be interested. And if you have thoughts on the discussion, particularly what IPO companies did we miss out on that you know are living happily ever after, write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com. We’d love to hear from you.
What’s the dumbest thing about hospitals that we still tolerate in 2025? This simple question kicks off a deep dive into the broken core of the Indian healthcare system. From confusing X-ray pricing and misaligned incentives that prioritise “sick-care” over healthcare, to the irritating experience of endless queues and fragmented records, the problems are deeply entrenched in the system.
In this episode of Two by Two, co-hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar talk to two founders who are not just trying to patch the system, but rebuild it from the ground up. Varun Dubey of Superhealth and Mayank Banerjee of Even Healthcare are both creating smaller, hyperlocal, and experience-focused hospitals. They break down how they’re unbundling the bloated cost structures of traditional hospitals, redesigning the patient journey, and realigning incentives by putting doctors on full-time salaries with ESOPs.
The conversation explores the difficulty of disrupting the current healthcare system and the challenges of scaling innovative models that prioritise patient well-being and affordability.
This episode of Two by Two was mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer.
If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends, colleagues, and anyone else who might be interested. And if you have thoughts on the discussion, write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com. We’d love to hear from you.
In this episode of Two by Two, we map out a viable AI strategy for India that plays to its unique strengths, not its weaknesses. Co-hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan sit down with Chaitanya Chokkareddy, co-founder and CTO of Ozonetel–a cloud-based communication platform providing call-centre solutions—who presents a contrarian view: India’s current focus on acquiring GPUs is a flawed, capital-intensive race it cannot win. Instead, the real, defensible moat lies in India’s cultural and linguistic data.
We dive deep into why a “data sets over GPUs” strategy is crucial to prevent the cultural exclusion of a billion people, how it impacts the very way we learn and feel, and why India’s massive IT services industry is sitting on a goldmine for building the next generation of AI agents.
This episode of Two by Two was mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer.
If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends, colleagues, and anyone else who might be interested. And if you have thoughts on the discussion, write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com. We’d love to hear from you.
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Additional reading
Airtel fights spammers. And Truecaller's business model
In this episode, we sit down with Ishendra Agarwal, founder and CEO of Giva, to unpack his mission to democratise fine jewellery in India. We look at how Giva is rapidly scaling its omnichannel presence with over 270 stores and targeting Rs 850 crore in revenue, all while catering to the modern consumer’s desire for accessible, fashionable pieces.
Co-hosts of Two by Two Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan take a deep dive into the transitioning shift caused by lab-grown diamonds (LGDs). The conversation tackles one core industry debate: can LGDs, dismissed by some legacy players, ever hold emotional value as heirlooms, or are they purely a fashion statement? Ishendra also makes an emphasis on the importance of brand and design and how they will be the ultimate differentiators in a commoditising market.
We also explore Giva’s operational innovations, from using AI in design to their “Giva Go” quick-commerce model for last-minute gifting. For anyone interested in consumer brands, market disruption, and the future of the jewellery, this is an unmissable discussion.
This episode of Two by Two was mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer.
If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends, colleagues, and anyone else who might be interested. And if you have thoughts on the discussion, write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com. We’d love to hear from you.
India’s fintech-based NBFC lending sector offers many lessons. Three early pioneers—Capital Float (now Axio), Zestmoney, and Lendingkart—raised significant amounts of venture capital, built solid momentum, and achieved growth and penetration. They pivoted, explored multiple opportunities, and yet, ultimately had to sell out.
In this episode of Two by Two, co-hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan are joined by guests Shivashish Chatterjee, co-founder of DMI Group, and Arundhati Ramanathan, The Ken’s deputy editor. Together, they discuss the business models of these lenders—including balance sheet lending and the rise of “buy now, pay later”—and what lessons can be learned for the future of India’s fintech lending ecosystem.
This episode of Two by Two was mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer.
If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends, colleagues, and anyone else who might be interested. And if you have thoughts on the discussion, write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com. We’d love to hear from you.
Additional reading
Axio—a fintech dream comes to an end https://the-ken.com/kaching/axio-a-fintech-dream-comes-to-an-end/
🎧 The Ken's premium podcasts are now available on Spotify! Subscribers can now listen to all episodes of Two by Two, First Principles, Zero Shot, 90,000 Hours and Make India Competitive Again on the streaming platform
Join Rohin and Praveen as they celebrate the one-year anniversary of the 2x2 podcast, reflecting on 52 episodes of business and strategy discussions. This special ‘vibes’ episode looks back at their journey creating Two by Two, the evolution of the show, and future plans, deviating from their usual topic-focused format.
Praveen shares key meta-narratives he picked from the past year, including a "desperation-driven convergence" where companies like Flipkart and Phonepe try to become each other. He also highlights themes such as the government shaping markets as a "competitor" or through "artificial constraints", and a "great career existential crisis" impacting roles from engineers to marketers. Other themes include the "destruction and retreat of big tech in India", the podcast's contrarian framing of topics, and a focus on India's "livability crisis", addressing issues like urban infrastructure and air pollution.
We’d love to hear what you think about Two by Two as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.
Welcome to the year-end special edition of Two by Two.
We’ve released 22 episodes of Two by Two since our inaugural edition in July.
We’ve covered an incredible breadth of counterintuitive topics framed as, well, two by twos.
Would Flipkart become Phonepe before Phonepe became Flipkart? Did Delhi prick Bengaluru’s bubble? Is the golden era of the software engineer over? Why is health insurance broken? How will Ola and Uber avoid ‘death by a thousand cuts’? Why is Zepto behaving like a gold medallist? Can venture capitalists do no wrong? Dmart versus the challengers at the gates. AI and the impending disruption of Indian SaaS.
We’ve had incredible fun exploring these ideas with a bunch of really sharp, experienced and opinionated guests.
Finding guests who don’t hesitate to speak their minds and state unpopular truths has been one of the hardest things. Far, far tougher than finding interesting topics. We owe all our guests a huge thanks for trusting us. Far too many professionals and leaders prefer to stick to rehearsed and predictable talking points in public these days.
We’d started Two by Two with the ambition to operate at the intersection of curiosity and synthesis. Each week, we said we’d spot the hidden connections and unasked questions. We’d identify the cast of players and their motivations.
We’d bring in incredible people to discuss these with. We’d try to answer simple yet fundamental questions like, what is going on, why is it happening, who gains and who loses, and where is all of this leading to?
By always asking questions. Always connecting the dots. Always being unfiltered and uninhibited.
We wanted Two by Two to be ‘your personal investigative brain’.
In 2025 we hope to make Two by Two even more interesting and unpredictable. Yes, at its core it will still be a weekly podcast. But I’m excited at the possibility of doing so much more by involving our subscribers, listeners and readers in these endeavours.
We want to make Two by Two ‘our collective investigative brain’.
And hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan will continue to do so with a new episode every Thursday.
To listen to all episodes of Two by Two, consider subscribing to The Ken’s Premium plan, which in addition to the podcast, will also get you access to our long-form stories, Premium newsletters and visual stories.
If you just want access to Two by Two, you can do that as well on Apple Podcasts with a paid subscription.
Two by Two is also a free weekly newsletter published every Friday. You can sign up for it here.
Listen to all Two by Two episodes here:
1. Will Flipkart become Phonepe before Phonepe becomes Flipkart? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/will-flipkart-become-phonepe-before-phonepe-becomes-flipkart/
2. Why has all the excitement and disruption gone out of startups? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/why-has-all-the-excitement-and-disruption-gone-out-of-startups/
3. Is Zepto a gold medallist or a bronze medallist? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/is-zepto-a-gold-medalist-or-a-bronze-medalist/
4. Delhi pricked the Bengaluru bubble -
https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/delhi-pricked-the-bangalore-bubble/
5. Swiggy needs to reclaim its past glory - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/swiggy-needs-to-reclaim-its-past-glory/
6. Is the golden era of the (software) engineer over? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/is-the-golden-era-of-the-software-engineer-over/
7. Google Pay: Big. Successful. Vulnerable - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/google-pay-big-successful-vulnerable/
8. Private coaching is eating away at schooling - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/private-coaching-is-eating-away-at-schooling/
9. Why Stripe could not become the Stripe of India? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/why-couldnt-stripe-become-the-stripe-of-india/
10. Health insurance in India is ripe for disruption - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/health-insurance-is-ripe-for-disruption/
11. Netflix and its last growth market - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/netflixs-last-growth-market/
12. Ather Energy was a pioneer. Can it also be a leader? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/ather-energy-was-a-pioneer-can-it-also-be-a-leader/
13. Do we even need Product Managers? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/do-we-even-need-product-managers/
14. How will Ola and Uber avoid ‘death by a thousand cuts’? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/how-will-ola-and-uber-avoid-death-by-a-thousand-cuts/
15. The relentless rise of the government as a competitor - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/the-relentless-rise-of-the-government-as-a-competitor/
16. What does the future hold for Ola Electric? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/what-does-ola-electrics-future-hold/
17. Can venture capitalists do no wrong? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/can-venture-capitalists-do-no-wrong/
18. Dmart versus the challengers at the gate - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/dmart-versus-the-challengers-at-the-gate/
19. Marketing is eating itself from the inside - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/marketing-is-eating-i...
Happy Deepavali, dear listeners!
On account of Deepavali, the Two by Two team is also taking a small break. But don't worry; we'll be back with our regular programming next week.
Until then, you can always listen to past episodes of Two by Two that you haven't gotten around to yet. If you're a Premium subscriber listening to this on The Ken’s mobile app or on Apple podcasts, you can just scroll down and listen to any of our episodes in their full, unedited form. On the other hand, if you aren’t a premium subscriber yet, you can listen to one of our older episodes which we’ve unlocked for you.
In fact, in the latest unlocked episode, we argue, debate, and discuss what Netflix needs to do to win in its last growth market — India.
Netflix's last growth market. (Full republished episode for free users available on Spotify | Apple Podcasts | Amazon Music | Youtube)
By the way, if you’re in the mood for something other than two-by-twos and business models, why don’t you head over to Daybreak, The Ken’s daily podcast?
Just last week, our colleagues Snigdha and Rahel did an amazing episode where they spoke to multiple people to understand why women freeze their eggs.
Successful women are freezing their eggs. And that's on men. (Spotify | Apple Podcasts | Amazon Music | YouTube Music)
If you have suggestions for potential future episodes, we’re all ears. We’re also all ears if you have recommendations for interesting guests we can invite to the show—guests who know their stuff and aren’t afraid to speak their minds, even if it goes against conventional wisdom. Write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.