Home
Categories
EXPLORE
True Crime
Comedy
Business
Society & Culture
Technology
History
Health & Fitness
About Us
Contact Us
Copyright
© 2024 PodJoint
00:00 / 00:00
Sign in

or

Don't have an account?
Sign up
Forgot password
https://is1-ssl.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Podcasts221/v4/09/c0/2b/09c02b8f-3856-abac-c862-d7c8d7b55b01/mza_3399618451966733934.jpg/600x600bb.jpg
Development Reimagined
Anita Gouveia and Chinwe Grace Jones
21 episodes
5 days ago
It started with a bold LinkedIn comment—and sparked a podcast. When a Fortune article revealed that managers were firing recent grads they had just hired, Chinwe ("Chin") Grace Jones and Anita Gouveia picked up the thread and never put it down. Now they’re bringing that energy to Development Reimagined—a weekly conversation where ideas fly, perspectives collide, and learning professionals feel seen. Chin, a leadership and team development coach who works across industries, joins Anita, a seasoned organizational expert with deep internal insights, to explore the shifting realities of workplace learning, talent development, and what it really takes to build people-first cultures. Part think tank, part friend-to-friend download, part strategic brainstorming session—each episode delivers practical insights and fresh thinking for HR and L&D professionals working in complex B2B organizations. From bold questions to big a-ha moments, you’ll leave every episode with one thing: a new idea worth trying.
Show more...
Management
Education,
Business,
Careers,
How To
RSS
All content for Development Reimagined is the property of Anita Gouveia and Chinwe Grace Jones and is served directly from their servers with no modification, redirects, or rehosting. The podcast is not affiliated with or endorsed by Podjoint in any way.
It started with a bold LinkedIn comment—and sparked a podcast. When a Fortune article revealed that managers were firing recent grads they had just hired, Chinwe ("Chin") Grace Jones and Anita Gouveia picked up the thread and never put it down. Now they’re bringing that energy to Development Reimagined—a weekly conversation where ideas fly, perspectives collide, and learning professionals feel seen. Chin, a leadership and team development coach who works across industries, joins Anita, a seasoned organizational expert with deep internal insights, to explore the shifting realities of workplace learning, talent development, and what it really takes to build people-first cultures. Part think tank, part friend-to-friend download, part strategic brainstorming session—each episode delivers practical insights and fresh thinking for HR and L&D professionals working in complex B2B organizations. From bold questions to big a-ha moments, you’ll leave every episode with one thing: a new idea worth trying.
Show more...
Management
Education,
Business,
Careers,
How To
Episodes (20/21)
Development Reimagined
Reimagining Culture
In this episode of Development Reimagined, we dive into one of the most talked-about topics in the workplace: culture. But we’re not talking about inspirational posters or fun perks. We’re talking about the everyday signals, habits, decisions, and behaviors that shape what it really feels like to work somewhere. Chinwe Grace Jones and Anita Gouveia explore what it means to reimagine culture as something we do, not just something we define. They ask bold questions like:
  • What culture are we actually creating with our current systems and behaviors?
  • Where does culture truly live—HR? Leadership? Or in every interaction?
  • And what does it take to create a culture that isn’t just talked about at retreats, but reinforced in the day-to-day flow of work?
You’ll hear insights on the cost of culture misalignment, the power of micro-behaviors, and why culture should be treated less like a project and more like a living, breathing ecosystem. Whether you’re an HR leader, a people manager, or a CEO trying to make sense of where culture lives and how to shift it—this episode is packed with human-centered, practical insights.

📝 Want the one-pager from this episode with key takeaways and reflection questions?
Visit www.reimaginingwithus.com

🎯 Sponsored by HIGHER
A gamified leadership development program built for first-line managers and their teams—designed to build leadership character, develop practical skills, and unleash team brilliance in the flow of real work. - www.takemyteamhigher.com
Show more...
5 days ago
30 minutes

Development Reimagined
Reimagining Learning Responsibility
In this episode of Development Reimagined, we’re rethinking how learning happens inside organizations—and more importantly, who’s responsible for it. Chin and Anita are joined by special guest Hannah Brown, author of Into the Hands of Leaders, to explore what it means when we shift the responsibility of learning out of HR and into the flow of everyday leadership. Hannah breaks down why the “L&D owns learning” mindset is outdated, and how frontline and mid-level managers can unlock more growth on their teams without needing more time, more training, or more budget. We explore the mindset blocks that stop leaders from seeing themselves as facilitators of learning, and how HR and L&D can shift their roles to equip, coach, and support leaders instead of carrying all the weight. This is a powerful episode if you’re tired of learning being an afterthought—or worse, a box to check—and want to create a culture where growth is baked into how work gets done every day.

📝 Want the one-pager from this episode with key takeaways and reflection questions?
Visit www.reimaginingwithus.com

🎯 Sponsored by HIGHER
A gamified leadership program built for first-line managers and their teams—designed to build leadership character, develop practical skills, and unleash team brilliance in the flow of real work.
👉 Take the first step and click here to learn more
Show more...
1 week ago
39 minutes

Development Reimagined
Reimagining Ethics in HR
In this episode of Development Reimagined, we’re talking about something that too often gets swept under the rug: ethics in HR. And we’re not talking about it in theory—we’re getting real. Chin opens up about a moment in her early career that sparked an unexpected chain of events after a simple request for time off. Anita shares how the HR response in another organization left team members devastated after an ethics complaint was ignored. Together, we unpack how ethics shows up (or doesn’t) in people-related decisions—from “should we say something?” to “how do we respond once we know?” We examine the cultural layers, the blurred lines between policy and people, and why HR professionals are often put in lose-lose positions when companies fail to act with courage and consistency. This isn’t just a philosophical conversation—it’s a raw and grounded look at how ethical leadership must evolve in today’s workplace.

📝 Want the one-pager from this episode with key takeaways and reflection questions?

Visit www.reimaginingwithus.com

🎯 Sponsored by HIGHER
A gamified leadership program built for first-line managers and their teams—designed to build leadership character, develop practical skills, and unleash team brilliance in the flow of real work.
👉 Take the first step and click here to learn more
Show more...
2 weeks ago
37 minutes

Development Reimagined
Reimagining Neurodiversity
When we talk about inclusion, neurodiversity is often overlooked—or worse, misunderstood. In this episode, we unpack what it means to truly embrace neurodiversity in the workplace, and why honoring different ways of thinking, processing, and engaging isn’t just the right thing to do—it’s a strategic advantage. Whether you're neurodivergent yourself or leading someone who is, this conversation explores how to shift from accommodation to appreciation. You’ll walk away with language, mindset shifts, and actionable ideas to support every kind of brilliance on your team.

📝 Want the one-pager from this episode with key takeaways and reflection questions?
Visit www.reimaginingwithus.com

🎯 Sponsored by HIGHER
A gamified leadership development program for first-line managers and their teams—designed to build leadership character, develop practical skills, and unleash team brilliance in the flow of real work.
👉 Take the first step and click here to learn more
Show more...
3 weeks ago
42 minutes

Development Reimagined
Reimagining Empathy
Empathy is having a moment—but are we teaching it the right way, and are we asking the right people to carry the emotional load? In this powerful episode of Development Reimagined, Chin and Anita explore what it truly means to lead with empathy in today's emotionally charged and ever-shifting workplace. From navigating the fine line between empathy and emotional overload to confronting the reality of return-to-office challenges, this conversation doesn’t shy away from hard truths. They unpack questions like:
  • When does empathy become emotional labor?
  • Who gets the “empathy card” in workplace conflicts?
  • How do leaders handle being the emotional dumping ground?
  • Is remote work eroding our ability to be empathetic coworkers?
With personal stories, leadership insights, and a few mic-drop moments, this episode challenges leaders and organizations to rethink how they’re supporting people—without burning out the ones doing the supporting.

📝 Want the one-pager from this episode with key takeaways and reflection questions?
Visit www.reimaginingwithus.com

🎯 Sponsored by HIGHER
A gamified leadership development program for first-line managers and their teams—designed to build leadership character, develop practical skills, and unleash team brilliance in the flow of real work.
👉 Take the first step and click here to learn more
Show more...
1 month ago
32 minutes

Development Reimagined
Reimagining Skill Development
What if your biggest skill gap isn't technical... but personal? In this practical and thought-provoking episode of Development Reimagined, Chin and Anita explore how traditional views of skill development are outdated—and why the future depends on learning how to learn. You’ll hear how the pressure to “have all the answers” prevents real growth, why soft skills often matter more than certifications, and how we can reimagine development so that everyone on the team thrives. In this episode:
  • The overlooked power of learning readiness
  • Why first-line managers often lack the skills they truly need
  • How companies can design ecosystems that develop real potential
Whether you support learning initiatives or lead people directly, this episode will help you reframe what it really means to grow in today’s workplace.

📝 Want the one-pager from this episode with key takeaways and reflection questions?
Visit www.reimaginingwithus.com

🎯 Sponsored by HIGHER
A gamified leadership development program for first-line managers and their teams—designed to build leadership character, develop practical skills, and unleash team brilliance in the flow of real work.
👉 Take the first step and click here to learn more
Show more...
1 month ago
27 minutes

Development Reimagined
Reimagining Creativity
Why does creativity feel like a luxury—when it’s actually essential? In this episode of Development Reimagined, Chin and Anita break down what it really means to be creative at work—and why most organizational cultures accidentally shut down the very thing they say they want. They reimagine creativity not as performance, perfection, or productivity, but as the natural expression of what wants to emerge. You’ll explore:
  • Why creativity isn't just artistic—it’s how people solve, lead, and grow
  • How current systems quietly discourage imagination and experimentation
  • The link between creativity and emotional safety (yes, even for grownups)
  • Why rough drafts and “bad ideas” are the goldmine of innovation
Whether you're designing programs or leading people, this conversation invites you to reimagine creativity as a cultural imperative—not an afterthought.

📝 Want the one-pager from this episode with key takeaways and reflection questions?
Visit www.ReimaginingWithUs.com

Sponsored by HIGHER
A gamified leadership development program—and a reimagined solution for HR Business Partners and L&D leaders ready to support their overburdened first-line managers and their teams in growing their leadership character and creativity.
🌐 Explore HIGHER at www.TakeMyTeamHIGHER.com
Show more...
1 month ago
27 minutes

Development Reimagined
Reimagining Mission | Vision | Values
Reimagining Mission, Vision and Values
We all know the vision, mission, and values of our organizations—at least on paper. But are they alive in the day-to-day? In this episode of Development Reimagined, Chin and Anita take a fresh look at these core building blocks and ask: are they really guiding how people lead, work, and grow? You’ll explore:
  • Why vision and mission statements often fall flat in real life
  • The missing link between stated values and lived behavior
  • Creative ways HR and L&D professionals can bring them back to life
If you’ve ever led a workshop where no one remembered the company values—or felt the tension between what's written and what's practiced—this episode is for you.

📝 Want the one-pager from this episode with key takeaways and reflection questions?
Visit www.reimaginingwithus.com

Sponsored by HIGHER
A gamified leadership development program for first-line managers and their teams—designed to unlock their brilliance through character-based leadership, incentives, and interactive learning.
🌐 Learn more at www.TakeMyTeamHIGHER.com
Show more...
1 month ago
26 minutes

Development Reimagined
Reimagining Assessments
What good are assessments if no one uses them? In this candid and creative episode of Development Reimagined, Chin and Anita tackle a long-standing frustration in learning and development: assessments that get completed… and then forgotten. From DISC to StrengthsFinder, 360s to AI-powered reviews, they explore why assessments lose impact—and how HR and L&D leaders can reignite their power for continuous growth. You’ll hear:
  • Why one-time debriefs aren’t enough to spark meaningful change
  • How to gauge readiness before introducing assessments
  • The risks of using assessments in recruitment without context
  • Creative ways to integrate assessments into performance and development cycles
  • How AI can help connect assessment insights to real-time goals
If you’ve ever wondered how to make assessments stick, this episode is for you. Growth is continuous—and your approach to assessments should be too.

📝 Want the one-pager from this episode with key takeaways and reflection questions?
Visit www.reimaginingwithus.com

🎯 Sponsored by HIGHER A gamified leadership development program—and a reimagined solution for HR Business Partners and L&D leaders ready to support their first-line managers and their teams with the clarity, confidence, and creativity to grow.
🌐 TakeMyTeamHIGHER.com
Show more...
2 months ago
24 minutes

Development Reimagined
Reimagining Transparency
What does transparency really mean in today’s workplace? In this episode of Development Reimagined, Chin and Anita unpack the complexity of transparency—when it builds trust, when it backfires, and how leaders can communicate openly without oversharing. Through relatable stories (including one that starts on a plane to New Zealand), they explore why timing, tone, and empathy matter just as much as truth. Together, they reveal how organizations can shift from performative openness to intentional, human-centered clarity. You’ll explore:
  • How transparency without trust leads to confusion, not connection
  • Why visible vulnerability is a leadership strength
  • What happens when companies preach transparency but don’t define it
  • Practical ways HR and L&D leaders can help teams communicate with empathy and respect
🎧 Tune in to discover how to reimagine transparency—not as a buzzword, but as a bridge to trust.

📝 Want the one-pager from this episode with key takeaways and reflection questions?
Visit www.reimaginingwithus.com
Show more...
2 months ago
28 minutes

Development Reimagined
Reimagining Promotions
Reimagining Promotions
What if the way we promote people is part of the problem? In this bold episode of Development Reimagined, Chin and Anita unpack the tangled world of promotions—what they reward, what they overlook, and who they often leave behind. From favoritism and vague criteria to visibility politics and limited leadership roles, they reimagine a workplace where growth is earned, not granted—and where success doesn’t always mean “moving up.” You’ll explore:
  • Why traditional promotions often miss the mark
  • The invisible “fit” and visibility factors that derail fairness
  • New models: specialist tracks, rotational pods, and project-based roles
  • A provocative idea: what if we got rid of promotions altogether?
This episode challenges organizations to move beyond titles and redefine advancement in more equitable, flexible, and future-forward ways.

📝 Want the one-pager from this episode with key takeaways and reflection questions?
Visit www.reimaginingwithus.com

🎧 Sponsored by HIGHER
A gamified leadership development program—and a reimagined solution for HR Business Partners and L&D leaders ready to support their overburdened first-line managers in growing their teams and their impact.
🌐 It’s Time to Reimagine Leadership From the Ground Up: www.TakeMyTeamHIGHER.com
Show more...
2 months ago
35 minutes

Development Reimagined
Reimagining Feedback
Is feedback helping your team grow—or holding them back?
In this episode of Development Reimagined, Chin and Anita unpack why feedback can be so hard to give and even harder to receive. They explore how feedback often gets distorted by emotion, fear, and outdated practices—and what it takes to reimagine it as a tool for empowerment rather than evaluation. You’ll explore:
  • Why feedback often gets withheld (or mishandled) in the workplace
  • The emotional layers beneath both giving and receiving feedback
  • The myths and damage of the infamous “sandwich model”
  • Creative, human-centered ways to build a culture of everyday feedback
  • Why reflection, permission, and self-awareness are essential to making feedback stick
Whether you’re coaching others, leading teams, or navigating your own growth, this episode will challenge you to shift from fear-based feedback to intentional conversations that move people forward.

📝 Want the one-pager from this episode with key takeaways and reflection questions?
Visit www.reimaginingwithus.com

🎧 Sponsored by HIGHER
A gamified leadership development program—and a reimagined solution for HR Business Partners and L&D leaders ready to support their overburdened first-line managers in growing their teams and their impact.
🌐 It’s Time to Reimagine Leadership From the Ground Up: www.TakeMyTeamHIGHER.com
Show more...
2 months ago
34 minutes

Development Reimagined
Reimagining Self
What if the version of you that your job rewards… isn’t the real you? In this reflective and revealing episode of Development Reimagined, Chin and Anita reimagine the concept of self at work. They explore how roles, titles, and expectations can cloud personal identity—and how reconnecting with who you are (not just what you do) is the most important development journey of all. You’ll explore:
  • How the workplace subtly trains people to perform a version of themselves
  • Why “reclaiming self” is essential to leadership, wellbeing, and growth
  • The tension between authenticity and advancement
  • Practical ways to support others (and yourself) in rediscovering who you are
Whether you’re in HR, L&D, or navigating your own evolution, this episode offers a powerful reminder: your professional growth is incomplete without personal clarity.

📝 Want the one-pager from this episode with key takeaways and reflection questions?
Visit www.reimaginingwithus.com

Sponsored by HIGHER
A gamified leadership development program—and a reimagined solution for HR Business Partners and L&D leaders ready to support their overburdened first-line managers in growing their teams and their impact. 🌐 Learn more at www.TakeMyTeamHIGHER.com
 
Show more...
2 months ago
30 minutes

Development Reimagined
Reimagining AI
Will AI take your job—or finally give you time to do your real job? In this timely episode of Development Reimagined, Chin and Anita explore the fast-evolving role of artificial intelligence in the workplace. Rather than fear or hype, they bring a grounded conversation on how AI can be reimagined as a partner in purpose—not just productivity. You’ll learn:
  • How AI is already reshaping leadership, L&D, and people operations
  • The emotional tension teams feel around AI—excitement and anxiety
  • Real ways to use AI to enhance reflection, creativity, and decision-making
  • What it means to lead with human-centered intelligence in an AI-integrated world
If you're in HR, L&D, or just trying to make sense of AI's impact on how people work and learn—this episode will shift your perspective and spark new ideas.

📝 Want the one-pager from this episode with key takeaways and reflection questions?
Visit www.reimaginingwithus.com  

Sponsored by HIGHER
A gamified leadership development program—and a reimagined solution for HR Business Partners and L&D leaders ready to support their overburdened first-line managers in growing their teams and their impact. 🌐 Learn more at www.TakeMyTeamHIGHER.com
Show more...
3 months ago
32 minutes

Development Reimagined
Reimagining Authenticity at Work
What if being “professional” is getting in the way of being real? In this episode of Development Reimagined, Chin and Anita challenge the outdated notion that authenticity and professionalism can’t coexist. They explore what it really means to show up as your whole self at work—and why it matters for culture, connection, and performance. You’ll explore:
  • Why the “authenticity” buzzword often misses the deeper truth
  • How work culture subtly teaches people to hide or dilute themselves
  • The difference between oversharing and being real
  • What leaders can do to create spaces where people feel safe to be seen
This conversation is a must-listen for HR leaders, L&D professionals, and managers who want to build teams that thrive on honesty, trust, and human connection.

📝 Want the one-pager from this episode with key takeaways and reflection questions?
Visit www.reimaginingwithus.com  

Sponsored by HIGHER
A gamified leadership development program—and a reimagined solution for HR Business Partners and L&D leaders ready to support their overburdened first-line managers in growing their teams and their impact. 🌐 Learn more at www.TakeMyTeamHIGHER.com
Show more...
3 months ago
39 minutes

Development Reimagined
Reimagining Play
What if play isn’t the opposite of productivity—but the fuel behind it? In this energizing episode of Development Reimagined, Chin and Anita explore the overlooked power of play in the workplace. From boosting creativity and connection to reducing burnout, they unpack why adding play isn't a distraction—it's a strategy. You’ll discover:
  • Why we stop playing at work—and what it’s costing us
  • How play can uncover hidden patterns, unlock new ideas, and build trust
  • Real examples of how to integrate play into meetings, training, and culture
  • What makes play psychologically safe—especially in high-pressure environments
Whether you're an L&D leader designing programs or a people manager looking to energize your team, this episode will leave you rethinking what “serious” work should really look like. 📝 Want the one-pager from this episode with key takeaways and reflection questions?
Visit www.reimaginingwithus.com  

Sponsored by HIGHER
A gamified leadership development program—and a reimagined solution for HR Business Partners and L&D leaders ready to support their overburdened first-line managers in growing their teams and their impact. 🌐 Learn more at www.TakeMyTeamHIGHER.com
Show more...
3 months ago
36 minutes

Development Reimagined
Reimagining Organizational Structure
Does your org chart reflect how work actually gets done—or just how power is stacked? In this episode of Development Reimagined, Chin and Anita explore what it means to rethink organizational structure in today’s workplace. From team size and decision-making authority to invisible hierarchies and outdated reporting lines, they expose what’s broken—and what could be built instead. You’ll hear:
  • Why some reporting lines create confusion instead of clarity
  • The hidden ways structure impacts morale, collaboration, and creativity
  • When flat structures work—and when they don’t
  • How to evolve your org chart to reflect purpose, not just position
Whether you're in HR, OD, or leadership, this episode will spark new ways to think about power, performance, and the structures shaping your team’s success.

 📝 Want the one-pager from this episode with key takeaways and reflection questions?
Visit www.reimaginingwithus.com

Sponsored by HIGHER
A gamified leadership development program—and a reimagined solution for HR Business Partners and L&D leaders ready to support their overburdened first-line managers in growing their teams and their impact. 🌐 Learn more at www.TakeMyTeamHIGHER.com
Show more...
3 months ago
44 minutes

Development Reimagined
Reimagining Leadership Development
Only 10% of leadership development programs are effective—so why do we keep doing them the same way? In this episode of Development Reimagined, Chin and Anita dive deep into one of the most broken and bloated systems in today’s workplace: leadership development. With only 1 in 10 programs delivering real results, they ask the bold question: What needs to be reimagined? You’ll discover:
  • Why traditional leadership training misses the mark
  • The difference between leadership theory vs. practical application
  • Why recruiting the right mindset matters more than tenure or promotion cycles
  • Creative ideas for making development more measurable, personal, and impactful—without breaking your L&D budget
Plus, they share new ways to build in real feedback, capture meaningful leadership moments, and create lasting behavioral change inside (and outside) the classroom.

📝 Want the one-pager from this episode with key takeaways and reflection questions?
Visit www.reimaginingwithus.com

Sponsored by HIGHER
A gamified leadership development program—and a reimagined solution for HR Business Partners and L&D leaders ready to support their overburdened first-line managers in growing their teams and their impact. 🌐 Learn more at www.TakeMyTeamHIGHER.com
Show more...
4 months ago
31 minutes

Development Reimagined
Reimagining DEI
Has DEI lost its way—or are we just measuring the wrong things? In this honest and thought-provoking episode of Development Reimagined, Chin and Anita take on the rising backlash against DEI and explore how organizations might reimagine it—not as a checkbox, but as a powerful driver of connection, innovation, and culture. You’ll hear:
  • Why companies are pulling back from DEI—and what they may be missing
  • Real stories of unconscious bias, cultural blind spots, and missed perspectives
  • What it takes to create psychological safety for honest, respectful call-outs
  • New ways to think about inclusion—from "fit" to "value add"
Plus, you’ll get a refreshing take on how DEI goes beyond race, gender, and labels—into the lived experiences, assumptions, and preferences we all carry.

📝 Want the one-pager from this episode with key takeaways and reflection questions?
Visit www.reimaginingwithus.com

Sponsored by HIGHER
A gamified leadership development program—and a reimagined solution for HR Business Partners and L&D leaders ready to support their overburdened first-line managers in growing their teams and their impact. 🌐 Learn more at www.TakeMyTeamHIGHER.com
Show more...
4 months ago
37 minutes

Development Reimagined
Reimagining Icebreakers
Do icebreakers actually work—or are they just a cringey waste of time? In this episode of Development Reimagined, Chin and Anita unpack the love-hate relationship many professionals have with icebreakers. From personal stories to laugh-out-loud conference memories, they explore what makes an icebreaker powerful—and what makes it painful. You’ll learn:
  • The common mistakes managers and facilitators make when using icebreakers
  • How to reframe icebreakers as “tone-setters” for deeper connection
  • Creative, inclusive, and practical ways to use connection moments in meetings
  • How a single story or casual pre-meeting touchpoint can elevate trust on a team
💡 Want the one-pager from this episode with key takeaways and reflection questions?

Visit www.reimaginingwithus.com

Sponsored by HIGHER
A gamified leadership development program—and a reimagined solution for HR Business Partners and L&D leaders ready to support their overburdened first-line managers in growing their teams and their impact.
🌐 Learn more at www.TakeMyTeamHIGHER.com
Show more...
4 months ago
33 minutes

Development Reimagined
It started with a bold LinkedIn comment—and sparked a podcast. When a Fortune article revealed that managers were firing recent grads they had just hired, Chinwe ("Chin") Grace Jones and Anita Gouveia picked up the thread and never put it down. Now they’re bringing that energy to Development Reimagined—a weekly conversation where ideas fly, perspectives collide, and learning professionals feel seen. Chin, a leadership and team development coach who works across industries, joins Anita, a seasoned organizational expert with deep internal insights, to explore the shifting realities of workplace learning, talent development, and what it really takes to build people-first cultures. Part think tank, part friend-to-friend download, part strategic brainstorming session—each episode delivers practical insights and fresh thinking for HR and L&D professionals working in complex B2B organizations. From bold questions to big a-ha moments, you’ll leave every episode with one thing: a new idea worth trying.