As I’m recording this introduction that you’re listening to right now, I’m struggling with my modesty. Maybe that’s a surprising thing to hear from someone who hosts a podcast about the subject and makes content about it online and spouts volumes about how magical of a practice modesty and hair covering can be. But as sparkly and a-flame as covering can make me feel, it feels equally important to share the struggles, to let you know that you’re not alone. Luckily, past me is here to offer some medicine. Cutting together this episode with Avalon Rose, the creator behind @ahijabirose and The Rebord Muslim Podcast ended up being a therapeutic exercise. In the next hour, you’ll hear how Avalon went from wanting to commit to hijab as soon as she converted, to hanging on by a thread about to take it off. Her perspectives around navigating the gray areas of religious practice have inspired me to have some grace with myself around my struggles, and I hope that in listening to her, you’ll feel supported and comforted as well.

As I’m recording this introduction that you’re listening to right now, I’m struggling with my modesty. Maybe that’s a surprising thing to hear from someone who hosts a podcast about the subject and makes content about it online and spouts volumes about how magical of a practice modesty and hair covering can be. But as sparkly and a-flame as covering can make me feel, it feels equally important to share the struggles, to let you know that you’re not alone. Luckily, past me is here to offer some medicine. Cutting together this episode with Avalon Rose, the creator behind @ahijabirose and The Rebord Muslim Podcast ended up being a therapeutic exercise. In the next hour, you’ll hear how Avalon went from wanting to commit to hijab as soon as she converted, to hanging on by a thread about to take it off. Her perspectives around navigating the gray areas of religious practice have inspired me to have some grace with myself around my struggles, and I hope that in listening to her, you’ll feel supported and comforted as well.

In the last several months, the internet has become alight with chatter about ChatGPT, an artificial intelligence chatbot developed by OpenAI and which launched just in November 2022. In the first month of its launch, ChatGPT had more than 57 million monthly users, and OpenAI reports that 13 million individual active users visited ChatGPT per day as of January 2023. AI for personal casual use has just crested into public consciousness (raise your hand if you too have problematically (though unknowingly) used AI to generate artistic portraits of yourself), but hundreds of industries have been using AI across the supply chain from ideation to shipment and distribution. Yasmeen Collins is a Muslim fashion designer who co-founded an AI-driven fashion startup called “AI Made This”, which uses artificial intelligence to generate the patterns and designs that are then printed onto fabric and hand-made into streetwear and modest-friendly garments in Yasmeen’s little studio in New York City. I’m highkey obsessed with how technology, faith and futurism, that is, the study of what our future might look like, all intersect, and that was kind of the impetus for this podcast. I went into this conversation with Yasmeen absolutely bursting with questions about how faith will be expressed in this new technological era, how we’ll come to terms with what beauty and the human spirit mean in a world where a computer can produce and sell high-quality artwork, and most specifically, how inner and outer modesty can express itself as a practice under these conditions.

In the last several months, the internet has become alight with chatter about ChatGPT, an artificial intelligence chatbot developed by OpenAI and which launched just in November 2022. In the first month of its launch, ChatGPT had more than 57 million monthly users, and OpenAI reports that 13 million individual active users visited ChatGPT per day as of January 2023. AI for personal casual use has just crested into public consciousness (raise your hand if you too have problematically (though unknowingly) used AI to generate artistic portraits of yourself), but hundreds of industries have been using AI across the supply chain from ideation to shipment and distribution. Yasmeen Collins is a Muslim fashion designer who co-founded an AI-driven fashion startup called “AI Made This”, which uses artificial intelligence to generate the patterns and designs that are then printed onto fabric and hand-made into streetwear and modest-friendly garments in Yasmeen’s little studio in New York City. I’m highkey obsessed with how technology, faith and futurism, that is, the study of what our future might look like, all intersect, and that was kind of the impetus for this podcast. I went into this conversation with Yasmeen absolutely bursting with questions about how faith will be expressed in this new technological era, how we’ll come to terms with what beauty and the human spirit mean in a world where a computer can produce and sell high-quality artwork, and most specifically, how inner and outer modesty can express itself as a practice under these conditions.

This week, we’re going international with Italian creator and consultant Sumaia Saiboub. Born to a Muslim Moroccan family and having grown up in Catholic-dominant Italy, young Sumi fought for her creativity to be the central focus of her being. After years of trying to prove to her fellow Italians that she was a full human beyond just the facets of herself that are religion and ethnic background, she found that Italian society had little room for the complex, curious and passionate worldview she wanted to explore in her life and career. Sumi decided to create the representation she needed growing up and began to share her story through her Instagram page and We Belong Europe, a project she co-founded that inspires young women of color across Europe to reach higher and dream bigger and teaches Italian organizations to support them. Style is in Sumi’s blood, and as a modest fashion creator, Sumi has cultivated an elegant and flowing aesthetic that calls on the timeless looks of the generations before her in order to create a bigger world for the generations after her.

This week, we’re going international with Italian creator and consultant Sumaia Saiboub. Born to a Muslim Moroccan family and having grown up in Catholic-dominant Italy, young Sumi fought for her creativity to be the central focus of her being. After years of trying to prove to her fellow Italians that she was a full human beyond just the facets of herself that are religion and ethnic background, she found that Italian society had little room for the complex, curious and passionate worldview she wanted to explore in her life and career. Sumi decided to create the representation she needed growing up and began to share her story through her Instagram page and We Belong Europe, a project she co-founded that inspires young women of color across Europe to reach higher and dream bigger and teaches Italian organizations to support them. Style is in Sumi’s blood, and as a modest fashion creator, Sumi has cultivated an elegant and flowing aesthetic that calls on the timeless looks of the generations before her in order to create a bigger world for the generations after her.

If you hang out in modest fashion circles online long enough, it won’t be long before you see comments start to crop up that call into question the very validity of the phrase “modest fashion”. The two words seem like a paradox to some people, and they’re not wrong for thinking that. In preparation for my interview in episode 6 with Hafsa Lodi, the author behind “Modesty: A Fashion Paradox”, I was absolutely boggled when I learned that leading economists and investment managers expect the modest fashion industry to reach $311 Billion in value by 2025. Even though fashion consumers are asking for more accountability when it comes to ethical labor and sustainable manufacturing practices, the industry is still rife with abuse and destruction, and for the millions of people who practice modesty, it does beg the questions: Can fashion and value-based modesty co-exist? And at what cost? It turns out I wasn’t alone in asking these questions. Someone else was not only thinking about these things but actively creating change from inside the industry. That was someone I wanted to know. Fresh out of school and looking for opportunity amidst the pandemic, Ariella Immerman founded The Reflective, an online modest marketplace with her friend Liza, who at the time had just been laid off from her job as a buyer for Bloomingdale’s. Liza and Ariella saw a gap in the market for women who practiced modesty to have a rewarding and efficient online shopping experience and snatched it. Now at the helm of a multi-generational and multi-faith brand, Ariella is finding new and compelling ways to create a community around the practice of modesty while deepening her relationship with her own spirit and character.

If you hang out in modest fashion circles online long enough, it won’t be long before you see comments start to crop up that call into question the very validity of the phrase “modest fashion”. The two words seem like a paradox to some people, and they’re not wrong for thinking that. In preparation for my interview in episode 6 with Hafsa Lodi, the author behind “Modesty: A Fashion Paradox”, I was absolutely boggled when I learned that leading economists and investment managers expect the modest fashion industry to reach $311 Billion in value by 2025. Even though fashion consumers are asking for more accountability when it comes to ethical labor and sustainable manufacturing practices, the industry is still rife with abuse and destruction, and for the millions of people who practice modesty, it does beg the questions: Can fashion and value-based modesty co-exist? And at what cost? It turns out I wasn’t alone in asking these questions. Someone else was not only thinking about these things but actively creating change from inside the industry. That was someone I wanted to know. Fresh out of school and looking for opportunity amidst the pandemic, Ariella Immerman founded The Reflective, an online modest marketplace with her friend Liza, who at the time had just been laid off from her job as a buyer for Bloomingdale’s. Liza and Ariella saw a gap in the market for women who practiced modesty to have a rewarding and efficient online shopping experience and snatched it. Now at the helm of a multi-generational and multi-faith brand, Ariella is finding new and compelling ways to create a community around the practice of modesty while deepening her relationship with her own spirit and character.

One afternoon last summer I was doom scrolling on TikTok and saw a video that stopped me in my tracks. A woman in a simple white dress and a steel blue hijab pointed up to the words above her head: Islamic versus Western Modesty. She flipped her hijab up off her chest exposing a waist-cinching twist. She said, “we all know the pull these dresses had on hijabis last year” she admits, “I still have a few in my closet. Here’s what I’m doing to make it a little better”. I honestly didn’t even watch the rest of the video too intently because instead, I was scrolling through the dumpster fire of comments: “And the modesty requirements for men?” “She’s living and looking how she wants, so what?” “Modesty is an attitude of dress, speech and behavior. My jeans and t-shirt are modest” “I don’t understand how having a body makes one immodest” “Wow your father lets you out like this? Makeup, skinny dress, you call it modest. Astafurgallah” This video has over 1.7 million views now. What struck me hardest about this video wasn’t that I had never heard that there was such a thing as Islamic modesty or what it entailed. Instead, here was this woman being brutally honest with herself about a mistake she made, gracefully correcting it, and showing others how to do the same. The creator of that video, @modestlyc, or just “C” as she remains anonymous online, and I became mutuals, and as I’ve watched her create over the last several months, I’ve been privy to something more subtle and special that just her account growth: I’ve watched in real time someone humble themselves over and over and over again, commit to doing better, and show up in a way that is firm but gentle, honest but kind. Beyond influencing the silhouettes I now dress myself in, C has become someone I look up to when it comes to how I express myself and relate to others online. Unfortunately, she’s become the target of a tremendous amount of hate for speaking so directly about her goals and expectations for herself. I frequently find myself asking questions about what it means to be modest in the digital age beyond just how we dress, where so much of our interpersonal interactions are anonymous, quick, and fickle. And I think C continues to be a guiding light to me in this way, as I hope she will be for you. If you enjoy C’s story, please consider taking what I’d normally ask you to commit by becoming a patron on Patreon, and instead giving any amount to the White Helmets, an on-the-ground rescue force in Syria still actively and urgently delivering life-saving service to victims of the recent earthquakes. You can give at whitehelmets.org and there is a direct link in the show notes.

One afternoon last summer I was doom scrolling on TikTok and saw a video that stopped me in my tracks. A woman in a simple white dress and a steel blue hijab pointed up to the words above her head: Islamic versus Western Modesty. She flipped her hijab up off her chest exposing a waist-cinching twist. She said, “we all know the pull these dresses had on hijabis last year” she admits, “I still have a few in my closet. Here’s what I’m doing to make it a little better”. I honestly didn’t even watch the rest of the video too intently because instead, I was scrolling through the dumpster fire of comments: “And the modesty requirements for men?” “She’s living and looking how she wants, so what?” “Modesty is an attitude of dress, speech and behavior. My jeans and t-shirt are modest” “I don’t understand how having a body makes one immodest” “Wow your father lets you out like this? Makeup, skinny dress, you call it modest. Astafurgallah” This video has over 1.7 million views now. What struck me hardest about this video wasn’t that I had never heard that there was such a thing as Islamic modesty or what it entailed. Instead, here was this woman being brutally honest with herself about a mistake she made, gracefully correcting it, and showing others how to do the same. The creator of that video, @modestlyc, or just “C” as she remains anonymous online, and I became mutuals, and as I’ve watched her create over the last several months, I’ve been privy to something more subtle and special that just her account growth: I’ve watched in real time someone humble themselves over and over and over again, commit to doing better, and show up in a way that is firm but gentle, honest but kind. Beyond influencing the silhouettes I now dress myself in, C has become someone I look up to when it comes to how I express myself and relate to others online. Unfortunately, she’s become the target of a tremendous amount of hate for speaking so directly about her goals and expectations for herself. I frequently find myself asking questions about what it means to be modest in the digital age beyond just how we dress, where so much of our interpersonal interactions are anonymous, quick, and fickle. And I think C continues to be a guiding light to me in this way, as I hope she will be for you. If you enjoy C’s story, please consider taking what I’d normally ask you to commit by becoming a patron on Patreon, and instead giving any amount to the White Helmets, an on-the-ground rescue force in Syria still actively and urgently delivering life-saving service to victims of the recent earthquakes. You can give at whitehelmets.org and there is a direct link in the show notes.

Today, I thought it might be fun to share my story: how I came to modesty, and how it's changed my life.

I wish more people knew about how differently modesty is treated theologically in Judaism than in other faiths. The body is seen as b’tzelem elohim, made in the image of the Divine, and is revered as holy. This holiness is so strong, many Jews believe, that it should be shrouded so as to be preserved, marked special and private for those who are worthy of receiving its holiness. The laws of modesty, or tzanua, in Judaism, reflect this holy status. Even hair gains special mystic privacy once a person becomes married. This was all very foreign to Miriam Ezagui, who is a TikTok creator and labor and delivery nurse. Her family wasn’t religiously Jewish for most of her pre-adolesence, and modesty, which is most often practiced by orthodox communities (though this is changing), was foreign. Once enrolled in Jewish day schools, it was a beautiful teacher who captured Miriam’s heart and showed her that beauty is more than skin-deep. This practice, she says, has never been difficult for her, and she loves sharing this perspective that the body is covered because it is holy, not because it is dirty or could cause others to sin, with her four young children and over a million followers on TikTok. The body, she says, is a tremendous vessel for holiness, and this is also something see is privileged enough to witness daily while on the job helping people give birth.

I wish more people knew about how differently modesty is treated theologically in Judaism than in other faiths. The body is seen as b’tzelem elohim, made in the image of the Divine, and is revered as holy. This holiness is so strong, many Jews believe, that it should be shrouded so as to be preserved, marked special and private for those who are worthy of receiving its holiness. The laws of modesty, or tzanua, in Judaism, reflect this holy status. Even hair gains special mystic privacy once a person becomes married. This was all very foreign to Miriam Ezagui, who is a TikTok creator and labor and delivery nurse. Her family wasn’t religiously Jewish for most of her pre-adolesence, and modesty, which is most often practiced by orthodox communities (though this is changing), was foreign. Once enrolled in Jewish day schools, it was a beautiful teacher who captured Miriam’s heart and showed her that beauty is more than skin-deep. This practice, she says, has never been difficult for her, and she loves sharing this perspective that the body is covered because it is holy, not because it is dirty or could cause others to sin, with her four young children and over a million followers on TikTok. The body, she says, is a tremendous vessel for holiness, and this is also something see is privileged enough to witness daily while on the job helping people give birth.

Lilly Craig describes her first experiences wearing hijab as freeing: as a trans woman in a tall, lanky frame, she was used to being ogled at and treated like a monster. But covering her hair and wearing modest flowy silhouettes helped her feel beautiful and safe moving through the world exactly as she is. This interview was originally recorded on TikTok live, and you'll hear a point during our discussion where the live pretty much blew up and got flooded with a ton of really hateful comments. Thanks to a few very kind folks who started overwhelming the comments with hearts and kind words, things did die down, but suffice it to say that this is only a fraction of the hate that Lilly gets for being a trans Muslim online. I am so grateful to her for keeping her composure and being vulnerable and honest with me throughout, which led to a really lovely conversation. After listening Today's episode does touch on topics some listeners might find upsetting, including religious trauma, mental health issues, disordered eating, navigating life while trans, and bullying. Please use your best judgment to decide if you'd like to listen.

Lilly Craig describes her first experiences wearing hijab as freeing: as a trans woman in a tall, lanky frame, she was used to being ogled at and treated like a monster. But covering her hair and wearing modest flowy silhouettes helped her feel beautiful and safe moving through the world exactly as she is. This interview was originally recorded on TikTok live, and you'll hear a point during our discussion where the live pretty much blew up and got flooded with a ton of really hateful comments. Thanks to a few very kind folks who started overwhelming the comments with hearts and kind words, things did die down, but suffice it to say that this is only a fraction of the hate that Lilly gets for being a trans Muslim online. I am so grateful to her for keeping her composure and being vulnerable and honest with me throughout, which led to a really lovely conversation. After listening Today's episode does touch on topics some listeners might find upsetting, including religious trauma, mental health issues, disordered eating, navigating life while trans, and bullying. Please use your best judgment to decide if you'd like to listen.

(This episode was recorded on a TikTok Live - sorry for the audio quality!!) Very few things make me feel more anxious than exercise. I played sports growing up, sure, but the general discomfort in one’s body that comes with maturing faster than peers tends to seep its way into how you move. Exercise, especially in public, has always made me feel self-conscious. That was until I started dressing modestly. In the same way that covering my hear and wearing flowy-er clothes sort of turns down the psychological noise of being perceived, modest activewear allowed me to find movement that felt amazing, without background worry about how i looked or if I was quote too big unquote for whatever I was doing. It allowed me to feel like exercise didn’t need to revolve around how I looked, but how I felt, and I could move in a way that made me feel alive and strong. One of the trickier things when you start dressing more modestly is finding these activewear clothes that make you feel cute but also cover all the parts you want to cover, and there are many activewear brands out there but few of them cater to the longer and looser silhouettes that folks who wants to dress modestly are looking for, and even fewer of those are owned by people who truly share a sense of purpose and aren’t just looking to turn a buck on a niche fashion interest group. Aja Cohen is at the helm of one of these incredible companies: Transcendent Active. From designing in the head-spinning churn of the fast-fashion industry to being a mother of three running a small modest activewear business, or as she calls it “empowered activewear”, Aja has committed her bubbly spark and fiery dedication to creating garments that help people feel confident and beautiful. Her relationship to modesty is fluid and effervescent, and in listening to her, I hope you’ll feel supported and encouraged to explore modesty on your own terms.

Very few things make me feel more anxious than exercise. I played sports growing up, sure, but the general discomfort in one’s body that comes with maturing faster than peers tends to seep its way into how you move. Exercise, especially in public, has always made me feel self-conscious. That was until I started dressing modestly. In the same way that covering my hear and wearing flowy-er clothes sort of turns down the psychological noise of being perceived, modest activewear allowed me to find movement that felt amazing, without background worry about how i looked or if I was quote too big unquote for whatever I was doing. It allowed me to feel like exercise didn’t need to revolve around how I looked, but how I felt, and I could move in a way that made me feel alive and strong. One of the trickier things when you start dressing more modestly is finding these activewear clothes that make you feel cute but also cover all the parts you want to cover, and there are many activewear brands out there but few of them cater to the longer and looser silhouettes that folks who wants to dress modestly are looking for, and even fewer of those are owned by people who truly share a sense of purpose and aren’t just looking to turn a buck on a niche fashion interest group. Aja Cohen is at the helm of one of these incredible companies: Transcendent Active. From designing in the head-spinning churn of the fast-fashion industry to being a mother of three running a small modest activewear business, or as she calls it “empowered activewear”, Aja has committed her bubbly spark and fiery dedication to creating garments that help people feel confident and beautiful. Her relationship to modesty is fluid and effervescent, and in listening to her, I hope you’ll feel supported and encouraged to explore modesty on your own terms.

Back in June of 2022, I announced this podcast on my Instagram story and asked my followers to send in suggestions for guests. One of the responses was from a follower with the sweetest handle, @eatsleepgrowplants: Lauren Grace. They asked if I knew a potential guest who was using hair covering and modesty as a tool for sensory overload, and hoped I knew someone else who could speak to that experience. They wrote how their own practice of covering was helping them not only cope with their ADHD, PTSD, gender dysphoria, and autism, but thrive like a richly-soiled garden in the sun. Modesty and hair covering, they said, made them finally feel safe to explore divine connection and do so entirely on their terms. So, I asked Lauren if THEY wanted to be interviewed, and so very luckily for me, they agreed. In today’s conversation with Lauren Grace, I am delighted and deeply grateful to share with you an experience of modesty that transcends religion, dogma and suffering and offers a pathway of what Lauren calls “embodied prayer”, a practice of presence and unbridled love that offers a gateway into a more peaceful, safe, and quiet being. This episode touches on topics that some listeners might find upsetting, including domestic abuse, suicide, mental illness and sexual assault. Please take care and use your best discretion to decide if you’d like to listen.

Back in June of 2022, I announced this podcast on my Instagram story and asked my followers to send in suggestions for guests. One of the responses was from a follower with the sweetest handle, @eatsleepgrowplants: Lauren Grace. They asked if I knew a potential guest who was using hair covering and modesty as a tool for sensory overload, and hoped I knew someone else who could speak to that experience. They wrote how their own practice of covering was helping them not only cope with their ADHD, PTSD, gender dysphoria, and autism, but thrive like a richly-soiled garden in the sun. Modesty and hair covering, they said, made them finally feel safe to explore divine connection and do so entirely on their terms. So, I asked Lauren if THEY wanted to be interviewed, and so very luckily for me, they agreed. In today’s conversation with Lauren Grace, I am delighted and deeply grateful to share with you an experience of modesty that transcends religion, dogma and suffering and offers a pathway of what Lauren calls “embodied prayer”, a practice of presence and unbridled love that offers a gateway into a more peaceful, safe, and quiet being. This episode touches on topics that some listeners might find upsetting, including domestic abuse, suicide, mental illness and sexual assault. Please take care and use your best discretion to decide if you’d like to listen.

On a warm California evening at a church social, a young Muslim Hafsa Lodi’s best friend, a Mormon, ran up to her and handed her a t-shirt. She unfurled it and in big, bold letters, it read: “Modest is Hottest”. Beaming, Hafsa proudly donned the t-shirt for many of her preteen years. It was not only a treasured token of girlhood friendship, but in her own words, a powerful symbol of interfaith support. Nearly 20 years later, Hafsa is the esteemed author of Modesty: A Fashion Paradox, a short but densely packed book that expertly explores the history and culture of the modest fashion industry and its major players, as well as the political and religious dimensions of this controversial corner of contemporary fashion. It was a dream of mine to speak with Hafsa when I first read her book only a couple months after I got the idea for this podcast, and I was so honored when she accepted my invitation to share her personal experiences with modesty beyond what she's written about publicly. I hope that her perspectives inspire you to reflect on your own relationship to your body and this funny thing called modesty.