In this episode of Mostly Growth, CJ Gustafson and Kyle Poyar explore the hidden mechanics behind focus, competition, and value creation across both consumer culture and B2B SaaS. They unpack why point-solution companies like Untuckit and Raising Cane’s can outperform diversified rivals, examine how competition actually strengthens category demand, and break down the gray zone of mid-market venture exits where founder incentives and investor expectations diverge. The conversation ranges from private equity roll-ups to the realities of cold-calling returning as a top-performing growth channel, to pricing transparency, algorithmic price discrimination, and how everyday behaviors—from mall Santas to $12 club water—reflect deeper strategic forces. It’s a fast, practical look at how operators can stay focused, understand market pressure, and avoid chasing the wrong game.
—
SPONSORS:
Pulley is the cap table management platform built for CFOs and finance leaders who need reliable, audit-ready data and intuitive workflows, without the hidden fees or unreliable support. Switch in as little as 5 days and get 25% off your first year: https://pulley.com/mostlymetrics
Metronome is real-time billing built for modern software companies. Metronome turns raw usage events into accurate invoices, gives customers bills they actually understand, and keeps finance, product, and engineering perfectly in sync. That’s why category-defining companies like OpenAI and Anthropic trust Metronome to power usage-based pricing and enterprise contracts at scale. Focus on your product — not your billing. Learn more and get started at https://www.metronome.com
—
LINKS:
Mostly Metrics: https://www.mostlymetrics.com
CJ on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948/
Growth Unhinged: https://www.growthunhinged.com/
Kyle on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-poyar/
Slacker Stuff: https://www.slackerstuff.com/
Ben on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/slackerstuff/
—
RELATED EPISODES:
SaaS Founder or Pop Star? CJ Gets Schooled
The Layer-Cake Playbook for Vertical SaaS Growth | with Roland Ligtenberg
The One Use Case for Venture Debt That Most Founders Never Think About
—
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00:00 Preview and Intro
00:01:09 Sponsors – Pulley | Metronome
00:03:29 Mall Fashion & Nostalgia
00:05:17 The Modern Mall Santa Reinvented
00:06:19 Untuckit & the Platform vs. Point Solution Debate
00:07:58 The Power of Category Focus
00:09:23 Obsession, Craft, and the Raising Cane’s Lesson
00:10:13 Germany’s “Hidden Champions”
00:12:11 Competition: When to Care and When Not To
00:13:32 OpenAI, Gemini & the “Code Red” Mindset
00:15:01 Competition → Category Education
00:16:27 Pricing Pages as Competitive Battlegrounds
00:17:32 VC Deck Theater & Competitive Grids
00:18:21 Rise of B2B Newsletter Advertising
00:19:15 Awkward Exits: The Venture “Gray Zone”
00:21:13 Founder Life-Changing Exits vs. VC Math
00:22:31 Why Secondaries Exist (and When They Help)
00:24:25 Why $100–500M Is the Most Common SaaS Exit Range
00:25:41 Structural Misalignment in Venture Exits
00:26:47 How Much Secondary Is Too Much?
00:29:52 Business Blunders: Justin Bieber the PM
00:31:21 Voice Notes, Etiquette, and Chaos
00:32:50 Cold Calling Makes a Comeback
00:35:17 Catherine Jhung Still Cold Calls CFOs
00:37:11 Algorithm Pricing Labels & Data-Driven Pricing
00:40:38 Why Clubs Charge $12 for Water
00:42:27 Closing Credits
#MostlyGrowthPodcast #mallstrategy #focuswins #businesssimplicity #growthoperators
Christopher O’Donnell, Founder and CEO of Day.ai and former Chief Product Officer at HubSpot, joins CJ Gustafson and Kyle Poyar to explore what it takes to build an AI-native CRM from first principles in a moment when product development has “no rules.” He reflects on shifting from leading massive teams to coding daily, why CRM needs to return to serving CEOs rather than being trapped in operational bottlenecks, and how blending familiar interfaces with powerful AI assistants can reset user expectations. O’Donnell digs into market selection, product-market fit in rapidly evolving categories, agent-based pricing, and the cultural advantage of staying close to customers rather than the industry echo chamber, all while sharing candid stories about creativity, ecosystems, and the accelerating pace of AI-driven product craftsmanship.
—
SPONSORS:
Metronome is real-time billing built for modern software companies. Metronome turns raw usage events into accurate invoices, gives customers bills they actually understand, and keeps finance, product, and engineering perfectly in sync. That’s why category-defining companies like OpenAI and Anthropic trust Metronome to power usage-based pricing and enterprise contracts at scale. Focus on your product — not your billing. Learn more and get started at https://www.metronome.com
Pulley is the cap table management platform built for CFOs and finance leaders who need reliable, audit-ready data and intuitive workflows, without the hidden fees or unreliable support. Switch in as little as 5 days and get 25% off your first year: https://pulley.com/mostlymetrics
—
LINKS:
Day.ai: https://day.ai/
Christopher on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markitecht/
Mostly Metrics: https://www.mostlymetrics.com
CJ on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948/
Growth Unhinged: https://www.growthunhinged.com/
Kyle on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-poyar/
Slacker Stuff: https://www.slackerstuff.com/
Ben on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/slackerstuff/
—
RELATED EPISODES:
OpenAI’s Impossible Math: $500B or Bust?
The Product-Market Fit Treadmill | Brian Balfour Explains
—
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00:00 Preview and Intro
00:01:10 Sponsors – Metronome | Pulley
00:03:31 Introducing Christopher O’Donnell
00:05:20 From Music to Software
00:07:10 Leaving HubSpot to Start Again
00:09:00 Inspiring Teams at Scale
00:10:50 What It Means to Build AI-Native
00:12:40 How Location Shapes Careers
00:14:30 Relearning in an AI-First Era
00:16:20 Shipping and Iterating With AI
00:18:10 The App as the Main Character
00:20:00 Using AI to Pressure-Test Decisions
00:21:50 Rethinking CRM Expectations
00:23:40 Choosing a Hybrid CRM Approach
00:25:30 Entering a Massive Market
00:27:20 PMF in the AI Era
00:29:10 The CRM Status Quo and Its Defenders
00:31:00 How CRM Lost Its Purpose
00:32:50 Rethinking Seat-Based Pricing
00:34:40 Why Credit Models Confuse Buyers
00:36:30 Flat-Rate Plans and Ecosystem Dynamics
00:38:20 Enterprises Sitting on AI Commits
00:40:10 Conference Room Dystopia
00:42:00 Getting Burned by Ecosystems
00:43:50 Trying Amazon’s Rufus
00:45:40 Suno and the Music-Tech Debate
00:46:28 Show Outro
#MostlyGrowthPodcast #AInative #CRMinnovation #ProductLeadership #StartupFounders
In this episode of Mostly Growth, CJ Gustafson and Kyle Poyar bounce between sharp SaaS insights and delightfully weird internet culture. They start with an unexpected dive into competitive bird-watching apps, then break down recent software mergers like Superhuman + Grammarly + Coda and what they signal about scaling, cross-sell strategy, and private equity mechanics. CJ and Kyle explore why PE portfolios are becoming powerful distribution channels for AI solutions, how niche data “signals” are outpacing generic ones in sales, and share hedge-fund-style tactics for uncovering proprietary business information. The conversation rounds out with “business blunders” — from Y-axis chart crimes to clickbait headlines — and a lively discussion on Spotify’s pricing power and how companies should (and absolutely should not) communicate price increases.
—
SPONSORS:
Metronome is real-time billing built for modern software companies. Metronome turns raw usage events into accurate invoices, gives customers bills they actually understand, and keeps finance, product, and engineering perfectly in sync. That’s why category-defining companies like OpenAI and Anthropic trust Metronome to power usage-based pricing and enterprise contracts at scale. Focus on your product — not your billing. Learn more and get started at https://www.metronome.com
Pulley is the cap table management platform built for CFOs and finance leaders who need reliable, audit-ready data and intuitive workflows, without the hidden fees or unreliable support. Switch in as little as 5 days and get 25% off your first year: https://pulley.com/mostlymetrics
—
LINKS:
Mostly Metrics: https://www.mostlymetrics.com
CJ on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948/
Growth Unhinged: https://www.growthunhinged.com/
Kyle on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-poyar/
Slacker Stuff: https://www.slackerstuff.com/
Ben on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/slackerstuff/
—
RELATED EPISODES:
The Layer-Cake Playbook for Vertical SaaS Growth | with Roland Ligtenberg
—
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00:00 Preview and Intro
00:01:09 Sponsors – Pulley and Metronome
00:03:31 Birding, Big Year & AI Bird Apps
00:06:08 Software M&A Trends in SaaS
00:08:23 Superhuman–Grammarly–Coda Reverse Merger
00:10:00 How Larger Valuations Attract a New Investor Class
00:11:21 Streaming Wars & Platform Consolidation
00:12:46 Private Equity as a Distribution Channel for AI
00:14:14 How PE Firms Drive Multi-Company Expansion
00:15:22 AI for Efficiency: The PE CFO Playbook
00:17:10 When AI ROI Really Matters in PE
00:18:49 Signal-Based Selling: High-Intent Buyer Detection
00:20:41 Signal Fatigue & the Hunt for Better Data
00:22:16 Why Proprietary Signals Win
00:23:31 Creative (and Creepy) Data Tactics
00:25:35 Pinterest vs. Google: Aspirational vs. Actual Behavior
00:26:43 Blurring Work & Personal Signals in AI Tools
00:27:12 The Michael Jordan of Y-Axis Crimes
00:29:59 Notion Agents Billboard: “Let Them Cook”
00:31:57 Pricing in the Real World: Spotify
00:34:26 How to Communicate a Price Increase
00:35:06 Closing Credits
#MostlyGrowthPodcast #PricingStrategy #AIGrowth #GoToMarket #PrivateEquity
In this episode of Mostly Growth, CJ Gustafson and Kyle Poyar interview Roland Ligtenberg, Co-Founder and SVP of Growth & Innovation at Housecall Pro, to break down how vertical SaaS can scale in messy, offline markets. Roland shares how Housecall Pro grew from a $4-per-month scheduling tool into a platform with more than a dozen products, emphasizing the importance of sequencing “layer cake” monetization — building a solid core before adding new revenue streams. He walks through unconventional customer acquisition tactics like cold-calling trades businesses, Yeti giveaways, truck-wash offers, and word-of-mouth tracking, all rooted in one principle: speak to customers through the channels they already use. The conversation also hits pricing strategy, PLG vs. SLG balance, TAM turnover, and using AI to tailor messaging by segment, trade, and intent — with constant A/B testing to avoid generic “AI slop.”
—
SPONSORS:
Metronome is real-time billing built for modern software companies. Metronome turns raw usage events into accurate invoices, gives customers bills they actually understand, and keeps finance, product, and engineering perfectly in sync. That’s why category-defining companies like OpenAI and Anthropic trust Metronome to power usage-based pricing and enterprise contracts at scale. Focus on your product — not your billing. Learn more and get started at https://www.metronome.com
Pulley is the cap table management platform built for CFOs and finance leaders who need reliable, audit-ready data and intuitive workflows, without the hidden fees or unreliable support. Switch in as little as 5 days and get 25% off your first year: https://pulley.com/mostlymetrics
—
LINKS:
Mostly Metrics: https://www.mostlymetrics.com
CJ on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948/
Growth Unhinged: https://www.growthunhinged.com/
Kyle on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-poyar/
Housecall Pro: https://www.housecallpro.com/
Roland on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rolandal/
Slacker Stuff: https://www.slackerstuff.com/
Ben on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/slackerstuff/
—
RELATED EPISODES:
Do vanity plates bring serious business?
—
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00:00 Preview and Intro
00:01:37 Sponsors – Metronome, Pulley
00:03:57 Guest Introduction: Roland Ligtenberg
00:04:30 Poker Background
00:07:22 EDM and Hobbies
00:08:35 Layer Cake Strategy
00:09:19 Avoiding Too Many Layers Too Soon
00:10:13 Marketplace Pivot & Home Services Complexity
00:11:06 Early Fintech & Core Payment Rails
00:11:53 Source-of-Record Wedge
00:12:23 Serving 55+ Home Service Verticals
00:13:52 Pricing & Packaging Across Many Products
00:14:32 Core Plans and Add-On Structure
00:16:05 Balancing PLG and SLG
00:17:47 When to Begin Upsell Conversations
00:18:52 Sales, Onboarding & Success Motion
00:19:49 Matching Pain to the Right Solution
00:21:54 Finding the “Front Door” for Offline Trades
00:23:26 Gatekeepers & Communication Challenges
00:24:23 Unconventional Acquisition Tactics
00:26:27 Early Days Tactics for Traction
00:26:49 Cold Calling as First Principle
00:28:19 Improving LTV & Scaling Calling Ops
00:29:40 TAM Management & Value-Led Outreach
00:32:17 Word of Mouth as a Growth Driver
00:34:09 AI’s Role in Go-To-Market Personalization
00:38:04 AI Tools in the Growth Stack
00:40:18 Business Blunders Segment
00:43:20 Pricing in the Real World (Christmas Tree Story)
00:46:50 House Call Elf Holiday Marketing
00:46:58 Closing
#MostlyGrowthPodcast #VerticalSaaS #GoToMarket #PricingStrategy #FintechMonetization
In this Thanksgiving-week Mostly Growth episode, CJ Gustafson and Kyle Poyar ditch the serious finance talk for a looser, drinks-in-hand conversation with Ben Hillman, bouncing between CJ’s nostalgic emo-punk concert adventure, the curse of vanity license plates, and the epidemic of “Y-axis crimes” in founder charts. They riff on Spotify Wrapped copycats, YouTube becoming living-room TV, kids’ YouTube empires, and the game theory behind The Traitors and the Monty Hall problem before shifting into real-world pricing: newsletter perk economics, the pitfalls of hourly consulting, and why value-based packaging always wins. The episode stays playful but still sneaks in sharp insights on growth, psychology, and how weird the business world can be when you actually pay attention.
—
SPONSORS:
Pulley is the cap table management platform built for CFOs and finance leaders who need reliable, audit-ready data and intuitive workflows, without the hidden fees or unreliable support. Switch in as little as 5 days and get 25% off your first year: https://pulley.com/mostlymetrics
Metronome is real-time billing built for modern software companies. Metronome turns raw usage events into accurate invoices, gives customers bills they actually understand, and keeps finance, product, and engineering perfectly in sync. That’s why category-defining companies like OpenAI and Anthropic trust Metronome to power usage-based pricing and enterprise contracts at scale. Focus on your product — not your billing. Learn more and get started at https://www.metronome.com
—
LINKS:
Mostly Metrics: https://www.mostlymetrics.com
CJ on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948/
Growth Unhinged: https://www.growthunhinged.com/
Kyle on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-poyar/
Slacker Stuff: https://www.slackerstuff.com/
Ben on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/slackerstuff/
https://x.com/parikpatelcfa/status/1992706757073023191?s=46
https://www.wired.com/story/null-license-plate-landed-one-hacker-ticket-hell/
https://x.com/im_roy_lee/status/1992692253257855261/photo/1
https://nyulangone.org/news/one-third-americans-are-trying-avoid-gluten-it-villain-we-think-it-is
https://x.com/techsalesguy3/status/1991585201601016161?s=46
—
RELATED EPISODES:
Is a weekly martini ARR? | with Dave Kellogg
https://youtu.be/Yb1lUQLJ6qw
—
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00:00 Preview and Intro
00:01:06 Sponsors – Pulley & Metronome
00:03:26 Mostly Drinks Episode
00:04:39 Concert Stories & Pop-Punk Nostalgia
00:07:30 Concert Parenting & Full-Circle Moment
00:08:01 Business Blunders Begin
00:09:51 License Plate Fails & Accounting Humor
00:11:33 Y-Axis Crime Chart Review
00:13:46 Global Podcast “Success” & Listener Jokes
00:15:25 Spotify Wrapped: Retention vs. Acquisition
00:16:29 YouTube as the Future of Podcasts
00:17:21 Kids’ Shows, Blippi & Creator Economics
00:18:20 The Traitors Show Overview
00:19:55 Game Theory & Winning as a Traitor
00:22:11 Monty Hall Problem Setup
00:23:52 Game Show Logic & Gambler’s Fallacies
00:25:34 Pricing in the Real World
00:26:28 Community Discount Card Business Model
00:28:34 Newsletter Perks & Subscriber Value
00:29:59 Marketplace Discount Math
00:31:26 Negotiating Like a CFO
00:32:25 Gluten-Free Nights & Pricing Strategy
00:34:49 Outbound Pizza as a Go-to-Market Play
00:36:28 Outbound Pizza Tuesdays to Gluten-Free Tuesdays
00:37:02 Pricing Services: Value vs. Hourly
00:40:12 The Picasso Pricing Story
00:42:20 Harvard Business School Case Study & Kim K Photo
00:43:27 Thanksgiving Cooking: Roast Chicken & Porcini Ragu
00:44:21 Wrap & Credits
Mostly Growth’s conversation with legendary SaaS operator and blogger Dave Kellogg digs into the shifting economics of software, why traditional ARR metrics are breaking down, and what actually drives buyer interest in today’s M&A landscape. Dave, CJ, and Kyle unpack the growing divide between “recurring,” “re-occurring,” and empirically recurring revenue, calling out how misreported ARR (from multiplying single months by 12, counting trials as customers, or ignoring opt-outs) is warping valuations. They explore why many $20–50M horizontal SaaS companies have become “zombies,” why vertical software and AI tuck-ins are still getting bought, and how investor preferences and preference stacks create brutal misalignments between founders, employees, and late-stage capital. The episode then shifts to real-world pricing psychology—from Instacart and DoorDash memberships to credit-card fee complexity and resort-fee opacity—before finishing with tools they’re using (PowerPoint’s charting, Wispr Flow) and Dave’s hard-won rules for scheduling etiquette after intros.
—
SPONSORS:
Metronome is real-time billing built for modern software companies. Metronome turns raw usage events into accurate invoices, gives customers bills they actually understand, and keeps finance, product, and engineering perfectly in sync. That’s why category-defining companies like OpenAI and Anthropic trust Metronome to power usage-based pricing and enterprise contracts at scale. Focus on your product — not your billing. Learn more and get started at https://www.metronome.com
Pulley is the cap table management platform built for CFOs and finance leaders who need reliable, audit-ready data and intuitive workflows, without the hidden fees or unreliable support. Switch in as little as 5 days and get 25% off your first year: https://pulley.com/mostlymetrics
—
LINKS:
Mostly Metrics: https://www.mostlymetrics.com
CJ on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948/
Growth Unhinged: https://www.growthunhinged.com/
Kyle on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-poyar/
Kellblog: https://kellblog.com/
Dave on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kelloggdave/
Slacker Stuff: https://www.slackerstuff.com/
Ben on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/slackerstuff/
—
RELATED EPISODES:
The Staffing Ratios Salesforce Used, with Brett Queener of Bonfire VC
OpenAI’s Impossible Math: $500B or Bust?
—
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00:00 Preview and Intro
00:01:21 Sponsors – Metronome & Pulley
00:03:48 Guest Intro – Dave Kellogg
00:04:18 Record Month Discussion
00:05:36 Who Will Buy All the SaaS Companies?
00:07:11 Investor Marks, Zombies & Misalignment
00:09:21 Horizontal SaaS Interest vs Transactions
00:10:32 M&A Narrative Violation & Carter Data
00:12:18 Big Tech’s AI Tuck-In Strategy
00:12:46 Vertical SaaS Positioning & Defensibility
00:14:16 Selling Durable Vertical SaaS Stories
00:17:09 “End of the ARR World” & Metric Breakdown
00:20:01 ARR Misreporting & Annualization Abuse
00:21:24 Snowflake’s “No ARR” Approach
00:22:11 Trials, Opt-Outs & Counting ARR Properly
00:23:11 CAR Abuse, Overstated Metrics & K-Ratio Failures
00:25:28 Empirical vs Contractual Recurring Revenue
00:27:18 Usage-Based Pricing, Stickiness & Investor Perception
00:28:42 Outcome-Based Models vs Revenue Classification
00:29:38 AI Valuations, Multiples & CFO Pain
00:30:00 Pricing in the Real World – Delivery Memberships
00:32:10 Membership Stickiness & 3-Sided Monetization
00:33:04 Costco as the Ultimate Subscription Business
00:34:18 Credit Card Fees, Lounge Promises & Coupon-Clipping
00:37:31 Resort Fees & Hidden Pricing Games
00:40:27 Something We Tried – PowerPoint & Wispr Flow
00:42:47 Scheduling Norms, Calendly Etiquette & Intro Protocol
00:46:24 Closing & Outro
Brian Balfour, Founder & CEO of Reforge and former VP of Growth at HubSpot, joins Mostly Growth to explore why product-market fit is a moving target. He introduces the concept of the Product-Market Fit Treadmill, a state where rising customer expectations and competitive pressure make it harder than ever to stay ahead. Brian breaks down how AI has accelerated PMF collapse, explains the hidden costs of product adoption, and shares how Reforge shipped five AI-native products with a team of just 20 people. Packed with frameworks, strategic insight, and startup realism, this episode is essential listening for product leaders, operators, and founders navigating the next wave of GTM.
—
LINKS:
Mostly Metrics: https://www.mostlymetrics.com
CJ on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948/
Growth Unhinged: https://www.growthunhinged.com/
Kyle on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-poyar/
Brian Balfour: brianbalfour.com
Brian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bbalfour/
Slacker Stuff: https://www.slackerstuff.com/
Ben on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/slackerstuff/
https://brianbalfour.com/four-fits-growth-framework
https://x.com/amasad/status/1981201454032703662?s=46
https://getlatka.com/companies/firefliesai
https://x.com/rowancheung/status/1988218743952916537?
https://gamma.app/insights/how-we-built-a-usd100m-business-differently
—
RELATED EPISODES:
When the marketing math doesn’t math | with Emily Kramer
Why Founders Are Posting Sad Dinners
—
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00:00 Preview and Intro
00:01:15 Sponsors – Pulley, Metronome
00:03:36 Guest Introduction – Brian Balfour
00:06:24 Writing, Frameworks, and Career Foundations
00:09:56 PMF Misconceptions and the Treadmill
00:13:25 AI Acceleration and PMF Threshold Shifts
00:16:07 CRM Expectations and Changing Market Dynamics
00:18:53 AI-Native CRM Approaches and Workflow Changes
00:21:08 R&D Investment and Customer Expectations
00:23:37 Roadmaps, Feature Velocity, and Customer Education
00:26:02 AI Adoption Across Product Discovery, Delivery, and Adoption
00:27:17 Product Adoption Constraints and Human Bottlenecks
00:29:06 Platform Cycles and Distribution Shifts
00:31:05 Framework for Evaluating Platform Bets
00:33:20 Open–Close Platform Dynamics in AI
00:36:34 Emerging Platforms and Early Ecosystem Bets
00:39:10 AI Discovery Channels and Traffic Distribution
00:40:03 Distribution Shifts and OpenAI’s Multi-Channel Bets
00:41:15 Hiring, Resumes, and AI-Generated Applications
00:43:20 Note-Taking Apps, Market Size, and “Flintstoning”
00:46:06 Vertical AI Note-Taking and System-of-Record Paths
00:48:27 Gamma, Canva, and AI Presentation Tools
00:50:15 Onboarding Innovation with AI Agents
00:51:57 Closing Remarks and Outro
—
SPONSORS:
Pulley is the cap table management platform built for CFOs and finance leaders who need reliable, audit-ready data and intuitive workflows, without the hidden fees or unreliable support. Switch in as little as 5 days and get 25% off your first year: https://pulley.com/mostlymetrics
Metronome is real-time billing built for modern software companies. Metronome turns raw usage events into accurate invoices, gives customers bills they actually understand, and keeps finance, product, and engineering perfectly in sync. That’s why category-defining companies like OpenAI and Anthropic trust Metronome to power usage-based pricing and enterprise contracts at scale. Focus on your product — not your billing. Learn more and get started at https://www.metronome.com
—
#MostlyGrowthPodcast #ProductMarketFit #BrianBalfour #StartupStrategy #Reforge
In this episode of Mostly Growth, CJ and Kyle break down the brutal math behind OpenAI’s path to a $500B revenue future—unpacking how much would realistically need to come from consumer subscriptions, B2B APIs, advertising, and commerce. Using comparisons to Netflix, Meta, Google, Amazon, and Snapchat, they map out the limits of each revenue stream and debate whether OpenAI can ever become both the world’s largest subscription business and a top-tier ad platform. Along the way, they detour into business blunders (including Kyle getting locked out of LinkedIn for being “too efficient”), unpack why CJ’s startup in the travel-experience space failed, and riff on everything from recruiting economics to software sprawl.
—
LINKS:
Mostly Metrics: https://www.mostlymetrics.com
CJ on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948/
Growth Unhinged: https://www.growthunhinged.com/
Kyle on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-poyar/
Slacker Stuff: https://www.slackerstuff.com/
Ben on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/slackerstuff/
https://www.mostlymetrics.com/p/klook-ipo-s1-breakdown
https://openai.com/index/openai-amd-strategic-partnership/
https://www.notoriousplg.ai/p/notorious-openais-revenue-breakdown
https://evoca.tv/netflix-user-statistics/
https://www.yaguara.co/amazon-prime-statistics/
https://www.cnbc.com/select/amazon-prime-is-it-worth-it/
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/SNAP/snap/revenue
https://www.businessofapps.com/data/youtube-statistics/
https://saad-report.rippling.com/result/
https://x.com/artman/status/1988733285086687729?s=46
—
RELATED EPISODES:
Grindr’s $0 CAC Secret from the CFO Who Launched Disney+ | Vanna Krantz
—
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00:00 Preview and Intro
00:01:25 Sponsors – Metronome, Pulley
00:03:53 Return from Sponsors and Show Kickoff
00:04:09 Klook IPO and the Global Tours Market
00:09:53 Real World MBA and Startup Lessons
00:10:27 OpenAI’s Path to $500 Billion
00:11:02 Revenue Makeup – ChatGPT, API, and Anthropic
00:12:15 Benchmarking Consumer Subscription Giants
00:13:23 Ads, Take Rate, and Diversification Strategy
00:19:27 Scaling to $200B in Subscriptions
00:20:06 Meta-Sized Ad Ambitions for OpenAI
00:21:35 Flash Forward – Can OpenAI Really Get There?
00:22:45 YouTube, Tokens, and Streaming Models
00:23:49 CJ’s Recruiting Venture – Mostly Talent
00:29:28 Building the Whole Finance Department
00:31:29 Experimental Pricing Model Proposal
00:33:01 Iterating on Warm Intro Structure
00:35:23 CJ’s Preferred Recruiting Model
00:36:15 Report from Rippling – Software as a Disservice
00:39:40 LinkedIn Lockout: Kyle’s Wake-Up Call
00:40:40 CJ’s Bookmarking Blunder & Twitter UI Rant
00:41:27 Social Media Game Push – NYT, LinkedIn, Facebook
00:42:27 Apple’s “iPhone Pocket” & Borat Comparison
00:43:00 Final Banter: Satchels & Sign-Off
—
SPONSORS:
Metronome is real-time billing built for modern software companies. Metronome turns raw usage events into accurate invoices, gives customers bills they actually understand, and keeps finance, product, and engineering perfectly in sync. That’s why category-defining companies like OpenAI and Anthropic trust Metronome to power usage-based pricing and enterprise contracts at scale. Focus on your product — not your billing. Learn more and get started at https://www.metronome.com
Pulley is the cap table management platform built for CFOs and finance leaders who need reliable, audit-ready data and intuitive workflows, without the hidden fees or unreliable support. Switch in as little as 5 days and get 25% off your first year: https://pulley.com/mostlymetrics
In this episode of Mostly Growth, CJ Gustafson and Kyle Poyar dig into what it means to be useful rather than just right at work, exploring how communication, empathy, and impact matter more than technical precision as careers mature. They share candid lessons from their own paths—CJ’s focus on making others look good to earn promotions and Kyle’s evolution into a domain expert through public writing—before unpacking what separates good from great VPs of Sales with insights from Pavilion founder Sam Jacobs. The conversation then shifts to OpenAI’s “too big to fail” claims, the economic ripple effects of AI infrastructure spending, and how finance leaders can stay grounded in reality. Rounding out the episode, the hosts preview their latest research—CJ’s “Agentic Finance” report on AI in the finance stack and Kyle’s 2025 SaaS Benchmarks—and close with lighthearted banter about founder age stats, home maintenance mishaps, and the price of professional Christmas lights
—
LINKS:
Mostly Metrics: https://www.mostlymetrics.com
CJ on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948/
Growth Unhinged: https://www.growthunhinged.com/
Kyle on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-poyar/
Slacker Stuff: https://www.slackerstuff.com/
Ben on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/slackerstuff/
https://sarahcharlton.substack.com/p/from-being-right-to-being-useful
https://www.highalpha.com/saas-benchmarks
https://www.mostlymetrics.com/p/presenting-the-state-of-the-agentic-financial-stack
https://www.mostlymetrics.com/p/finance-in-2030
https://worksinprogress.co/issue/the-algorithm-will-see-you-now/
https://www.growthunhinged.com/p/your-pricing-is-broken
—
RELATED EPISODES:
Getting fired 4 times made me a founder | Sam Jacobs of Pavilion
How To Win at Early Stage Sales With the Guy Who Helped Take Snyk From $0 to $100M+
996 Culture, Exploding AI Bills & SaaS Chaos
—
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00:00 Preview and Intro
00:01:43 Sponsors – Pulley and Metronome
00:04:03 Flight Cancellation and Airport Chaos
00:07:23 Being Right vs. Being Useful at Work
00:09:33 Career Paths – Expert vs. Manager
00:10:42 Getting Promoted and Making Others Look Good
00:14:50 What Separates a Good VP of Sales from a Great One
00:17:22 The CFO Mindset Behind Great Sales Leaders
00:21:58 Is OpenAI Too Big To Fail?
00:24:32 AI Investments and Economic Growth
00:26:30 Accounting Games and Useful Life of AI Infrastructure
00:27:38 Agentic Finance and the AI-Driven Finance Stack
00:31:07 2025 SaaS Benchmarks Report Highlights
00:33:24 Realistic Growth Rates by ARR Tier
00:34:15 Efficiency Gains and Headcount Reduction
00:35:05 AI’s Impact on Engineering Teams
00:37:09 Age and Startup Success
00:39:54 The Power of Networks and Mature Relationships
00:40:50 Something You Tried This Week – HVAC Cleaning
00:46:13 Credits – Mostly Growth Closing Remarks
—
SPONSORS:
Pulley is the cap table management platform built for CFOs and finance leaders who need reliable, audit-ready data and intuitive workflows, without the hidden fees or unreliable support. Switch in as little as 5 days and get 25% off your first year: https://pulley.com/mostlymetrics
Metronome is real-time billing built for modern software companies. Metronome turns raw usage events into accurate invoices, gives customers bills they actually understand, and keeps finance, product, and engineering perfectly in sync. That’s why category-defining companies like OpenAI and Anthropic trust Metronome to power usage-based pricing and enterprise contracts at scale. Focus on your product — not your billing. Learn more and get started at https://www.metronome.com
—
#MostlyGrowthPodcast #StartupFinance #AIPodcast #SaaSLeadership #GoToMarket
Ever built a plan that looks airtight on paper—until you do the math? Emily Kramer (ex-Asana, Carta) joins the Mostly Growth crew to expose the hilariously painful reality of B2B marketing budgets, broken forecasts, and exec goals that straight-up don't add up. From her viral “Random Acts of Marketing” framework to headcount-vs-program spend debates, Emily breaks down why planning often feels like a farce. The episode also dives into the budgeting tug-of-war between CMOs and CFOs, why LinkedIn marketing is mostly a mess, and how to stop optimizing things that don’t matter. If you’ve ever been told to “hit a number” that makes zero sense, this one’s for you.
—
LINKS:
Mostly Metrics: https://www.mostlymetrics.com
CJ on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948/
Growth Unhinged: https://www.growthunhinged.com/
Kyle on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-poyar/
MKT1 Newsletter: https://newsletter.mkt1.co/
Emily on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emilykramer/
Slacker Stuff: https://www.slackerstuff.com/
Ben on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/slackerstuff/
—
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00:00 Preview and Intro
00:00:13 The CMO Budget Dilemma
00:00:33 B2B Brands Trying to Be Cool on LinkedIn
00:01:14 Show Intro – Mostly Growth with CJ and Kyle
00:01:38 Sponsors – Metronome and Pulley
00:03:58 Guest Introduction – Emily Kramer and the Steph Curry / Taylor Swift Analogy
00:06:14 Emily Kramer’s Frameworks: Random Acts of Marketing (RAM)
00:08:47 Fuel and Engine Framework – Balancing Creation and Distribution
00:12:34 CFO vs. Marketing – Goal Planning Tensions
00:13:19 Forecasting and Budgeting – Top-Down vs. Bottom-Up
00:16:44 When the Math Doesn’t Math – Efficiency and Conversion
00:18:30 Big Bets and Budget Planning
00:20:36 Headcount vs. Program Spend Trade-Offs
00:22:57 Biggest Mistakes in Annual Planning
00:24:30 Building a LinkedIn Flywheel and Influencer Strategy
00:26:45 Thought Leader Ads and Boosting Executive Posts
00:29:10 Cringe B2B Content and Random Acts of Marketing
00:32:02 LinkedIn’s Pay-to-Play Shift
00:35:49 Hot or Not: Marketing Channels
00:41:51 Emily’s Market One Supper Club and Community Building
00:44:59 Wrap-Up and Credits
—
SPONSORS:
Metronome is real-time billing built for modern software companies. Metronome turns raw usage events into accurate invoices, gives customers bills they actually understand, and keeps finance, product, and engineering perfectly in sync. That’s why category-defining companies like OpenAI and Anthropic trust Metronome to power usage-based pricing and enterprise contracts at scale. Focus on your product — not your billing. Learn more and get started at https://www.metronome.com
Pulley is the cap table management platform built for CFOs and finance leaders who need reliable, audit-ready data and intuitive workflows, without the hidden fees or unreliable support. Switch in as little as 5 days and get 25% off your first year: https://pulley.com/mostlymetrics
—
#MostlyGrowthPodcast #TheMathDoesntMath #StartupStruggles #B2BMarketing #BudgetBattle
In this high-energy episode of Mostly Growth, CJ Gustafson, Kyle Poyar, and Ben Hillman dive into the hidden levers of SaaS growth and what truly separates startups that scale to $20M+ ARR from those that stall out. They explore eye-opening data from 6,500 companies, revealing how the best improve net retention, raise pricing, and re-engineer their revenue models over time. Alongside the metrics, there’s plenty of playful chaos—like a naming debate over “Yoshinobu Yamamoto Gustafson,” a rapid-fire game of “Founder or Pop Star,” and CJ’s accidental IPO embargo break. It’s part insight, part inside joke, and 100% for SaaS operators and C-suite climbers.
—
LINKS:
Mostly Metrics: https://www.mostlymetrics.com
CJ on X (@cjgustafson222): https://x.com/cjgustafson222
Growth Unhinged: https://www.growthunhinged.com/
Kyle on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-poyar/
Slacker Stuff: https://www.slackerstuff.com/
Ben on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/slackerstuff/
https://www.growthunhinged.com/p/the-compounding-startup
https://www.growthunhinged.com/p/the-odds-of-making-it
https://www.superme.ai/kylepoyar?conversationId=VgDXTOl2Z89mW7UYXstU0b
https://a16z.com/anatomy-of-an-enterprise-platform-company/
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hhi.asp
https://www.mostlymetrics.com/p/navan-ipo-s1-breakdown
https://x.com/amendandpretend/status/1983588137453416763?s=46
https://x.com/ryan_c_walsh/status/1983705182371475630?s=46
https://www.reddit.com/r/TwinCities/comments/z6hxp8/how_much_are_people_paying_for_residential_snow/
—
RELATED EPISODES:
Getting fired 4 times made me a founder | Sam Jacobs of Pavilion
Why Founders Are Posting Sad Dinners
—
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00:00 Preview and Intro
00:01:20 Sponsors Pulley and Metronome
00:03:24 Welcome Back Dodgers Banter
00:05:03 SaaS Founder or Pop Star Game
00:07:08 Growth Levers Report Overview
00:08:33 Building for Expansion and Retention
00:10:11 Figure It Out and ICP Discussion
00:11:47 Monthly Growth and Compounding
00:13:44 Pricing Lessons Fat Joe Quote
00:14:46 AI Avatars Introduction
00:15:35 CJ Tests the Kyle Chatbot
00:16:39 AI Costs Beta and Power Users
00:17:54 Using AI for Writing and Research
00:19:52 Cannibalizing Content and Platform Talk
00:21:28 A16z Platform Discussion
00:23:49 Herfindahl Hirschman Index Explained
00:24:33 HHI Applied to Market Entry
00:26:13 CrowdStrike Datadog Multi Product Models
00:29:17 Business Blunders and Navan IPO
00:33:08 Snow Removal Pricing in the Real World
—
SPONSORS:
Metronome is real-time billing built for modern software companies. Metronome turns raw usage events into accurate invoices, gives customers bills they actually understand, and keeps finance, product, and engineering perfectly in sync. That’s why category-defining companies like OpenAI and Anthropic trust Metronome to power usage-based pricing and enterprise contracts at scale. Focus on your product — not your billing. Learn more and get started at https://www.metronome.com
Pulley is the cap table management platform built for CFOs and finance leaders who need reliable, audit-ready data and intuitive workflows, without the hidden fees or unreliable support. Switch in as little as 5 days and get 25% off your first year: https://pulley.com/mostlymetrics
—
#MostlyGrowthPodcast #SaaSGrowth #StartupStrategy #B2BTech #RevenueRetention
CJ, Kyle, and Ben sit down with product-growth leader Leah Tharin to unpack why “growth” is the connective tissue between marketing traffic and product revenue, how a new middle segment of visitors just wants product information (not onboarding), and why interactive demos and ICP-focused metrics beat vanity signups. They get into AI-era realities—LLMs ingesting messy web data, SEO-style gaming creeping into AI search, and why you must structure content for machines without drowning it in noise. Leah shares practical playbooks for segmenting dashboards by ICP, qualifying intent before trials, and building moats through workflow depth and integrations. They close with Business Blunders (cloud outages stranding smart beds), a “potentially reliable at 2 a.m.” wealth thought experiment, and Pricing in the Real World (when shrinking markets get more profitable and why LEGO’s premium strategy still
Timestamps:
00:00 Preview and Intro
01:00 Theme and Show Intro by Ben
01:23 Welcome and Guest Intro: Leah Tharin joins Mostly Growth
02:58 Halloween banter and European vs. US traditions
04:03 Europe’s AI/startup scene and data protection realities
07:34 Why founders move HQs to the US; SF gravity for AI startups
08:15 EU hubs, language barriers, and multilingual products
09:45 What’s working in growth right now? Setting definitions
10:07 “Growth is just marketing, right?” — Leah’s framework
12:54 Trials vs. info-seekers; fix onboarding for two intents
16:06 Prompt-box homepages and brand vs. explanation debt
19:46 AI search, poisoning, and content architecture limits
22:32 What to do now: simplify metrics and segment by ICP
23:12 Building ICP vs. non-ICP dashboards that guide teams
25:37 Use interactive demos; qualify intent before trials
34:32 Snake-eating-its-tail data and model bias in training sets
35:43 Founder advice: bet on problem-obsessed teams and workflows
38:41 Business Blunders: AWS outage and “smart bed” fail
39:46 Potentially Reliable at 2 a.m.: The “missing billionaires” thought experiment
44:06 Pricing in the Real World: shrinking markets, rising margins
45:10 LEGO pricing and premium positioning rant
49:24 Events on a boat: captive audiences and sponsorships
50:45 Credits and Sign-off
Links:
https://www.leahtharin.com/p/why-ai-cannot-simulate-your-customers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Missing_Billionaires
https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2025/06/12/how-to-invest-your-enormous-inheritance
https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2025/10/26/the-counterintuitive-economics-of-smoking
In this episode, CJ Gustafson, Kyle Poyar, and Ben Hillman break down the data behind Kyle’s new 2025 B2B Go-To-Market report, covering what’s actually working in sales and marketing right now — and what’s not. They discuss why most companies are spreading their marketing budgets too thin, how focusing deeply on a few proven channels drives better ROI, and why founder-led content on LinkedIn is outperforming everything else. The crew digs into the rise of AI search, the surprising durability of SEO, and the death of AI SDRs. CJ also explains his “analytics escalator” framework, showing how teams can evolve from basic dashboards to predictive and prescriptive analytics. The episode wraps with their favorite “business blunders” and a nostalgic dive into LimeWire’s bizarre Web3 comeback.
Get Kyle's GTM Report here: https://www.growthunhinged.com/Timestamps:00:00 Beyoncé and the Hot Sauce Reference01:42 Welcome to Mostly Growth02:10 Pumpkin Cream Cold Brew & Fall Banter03:02 The Problem with Startup Swag04:32 The Best Swag Ever: Runway’s “Burn Rate” Hot Sauce06:12 Beyoncé Callback & Yeti Self-Portrait Water Bottle08:32 Transition to GTM Discussion08:42 What’s Actually Working in GTM09:15 Too Many Channels, Not Enough Focus10:05 The Power Law of Marketing Spend11:44 F1, Downforce, and Channel Focus13:15 Double Down on Winning Channels14:11 The One-Trick Pony Fallacy15:07 Inbound Isn’t Dead — It’s Just Personal16:14 The LinkedIn Effect: People vs. Brands17:48 Why Founder-Led Content Wins19:09 The GTM Scorecard Framework20:00 What’s in the Top-Right Quadrant20:14 The Failure of AI SDRs21:03 The Rise of AI Search (AIO)22:02 AI Hype vs. Real Adoption22:43 Finance Teams Taking Over Analytics23:11 Who Should Own Analytics25:00 The Analytics Escalator: Four Levels Explained28:49 From Dashboards to Diagnosis31:08 Avoiding Useless Analysis33:07 Predictive and Prescriptive Analytics38:03 Why Analytics Needs More Than Software39:39 Should CFOs Really Own Analytics40:08 Business Blunders: The Dreaded Catch-Up Email41:25 How to Say No Gracefully43:00 The LimeWire Comeback44:20 LimeWire Buys Fyre Festival Rights45:00 Nostalgia, Scams, and Brand Value in 2025Links:https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7387167459633504257/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDZJPJV__bQhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primate_cityhttps://podcasts.musixmatch.com/podcast/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard-01gyvn3sxrv2dzjp7a94ea738y/episode/brad-pitt-01jydvce50ysyercfshbdgtanvhttps://www.mostlymetrics.com/p/cfos-are-taking-over-the-analytics-departmenthttps://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-say-nohttps://nftnow.com/news/lmwr-limewire-is-back-from-the-dead-as-a-web3-brandhttps://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/16/us/limewire-crypto-fyre-festival.htmlhttps://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lifestyle/arts/fyre-festival-musical-taika-waititi-rita-ora-1236362629/https://getplanta.com/
In this episode, CJ Gustafson, Kyle Poyar, and Ben Hillman dive into the concept of “sloponomics”—a tongue-in-cheek look at the overwhelming flood of mediocre AI-generated content and what it means for creators, startups, and investors. They discuss how unique voices and genuine creativity will stand out in an AI-saturated landscape, the economic parallels between modern content creation and startup growth, and the tricky dynamics of building sustainable momentum in a world of noise. The trio also unpack the “$10K MRR” meme, pricing psychology, and the difference between chasing vanity metrics and building lasting value. With humor and real-world insight, they explore how AI, distribution, and early-stage investment are reshaping what success looks like in tech and media.
Timestamps:
00:00 Preview and Intro
01:37 Being Mean to AI and Early Banter
05:00 The Rise of AI-Generated “Slop” Content
07:15 The Creator “Haves and Have-Nots”
09:00 Losing Credit to AI Models
11:20 Feeding the Beast: 400 Posts Later
12:00 “Slop Talk” and Pop-Culture References
13:00 The $10K MRR Meme and Startup Momentum
15:20 Pricing Psychology and Product Traction
17:10 Hunting Mice, Buffalo, and Elephants
18:45 The Ideal Customer Profile and Early Adopters
20:15 Venture Funds, Bubbles, and Ecosystem Investing
23:45 When Startups Invest in Startups
26:40 Slack, Lattice, and the Platform Play
29:05 Wrapping Up and Late-Night Insights
Episodes Referenced:
Slop Talk (coming soon)
https://www.youtube.com/slackerstuff
Why Only 2% of Startups Make It
When startups burn cash faster than they learn | Ivan Makarov:
996 Culture, Exploding AI Bills & SaaS Chaos
Links:
https://www.usg.edu/galileo/skills/unit07/internet07_02.phtml
https://futurism.com/altman-please-thanks-chatgpt
https://futurism.com/artificial-intelligence/over-50-percent-internet-ai-slop
https://www.axios.com/2025/10/14/ai-generated-writing-humans
https://www.economist.com/business/2025/10/16/sloponomics-who-wins-and-loses-in-the-ai-content-flood
https://x.com/madhuraaa_/status/1978390720881819884
https://www.mostlymetrics.com/p/eat-what-you-kill
https://christophjanz.blogspot.com/2014/10/five-ways-to-build-100-million-business.html
https://www.growthunhinged.com/p/how-to-build-your-early-gtm-strategy
https://www.mostlymetrics.com/p/startups-investing-in-startups-peak-bubble-behavior
https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2025/10/10/are-barefoot-shoes-good-for-runners
https://x.com/ivanomaksf/status/1978852000298320068?s=46
https://www.mostlymetrics.com/p/is-ltv-to-cac-the-nickelback-of-metrics
https://christophjanz.blogspot.com/2014/10/five-ways-to-build-100-million-business.html
https://www.theinformation.com/articles/ben-horowitz-hires-jensen-vercel-starts-venture-fund
In this episode of Mostly Growth, CJ, Kyle, and Ben start with Carl’s infamous “AWS from the car” rant before diving into a sharp, funny breakdown of corporate title inflation and the slow death of middle management. From “Founding BDRs” to self-proclaimed “VPs of vibes,” the crew dissects why org charts are flattening and how that changes leadership, accountability, and hiring. Then, in a classic Pricing Model Roast, they unpack why hybrid and usage-based models are both brilliant and broken, what outcome-based pricing gets wrong, and why take rates might secretly be the future. The trio closes with thoughts on momentum, AI urgency theater, and how to manage teams without burning them out—or yourself in the process.
Timestamps:
00:00 Carl from the Car on AWS
01:04 Mostly Growth intro theme
01:27 CJ’s flight back from LA (and the fake Wi-Fi warning)
02:00 “I finally learned where Mississippi was”
02:45 LA traffic and Nobu dinner with Ben
04:08 Ben’s history lesson: why LA is a transportation nightmare
06:34 “Clip it down” — segue to the main topic
07:20 Title deflation and the death of middle management
09:12 “Founding BDR” and generic LinkedIn titles
11:00 The problem with VP title inflation
12:31 The vanishing middle manager
14:03 “Bonfire of the Middle Managers” and why it matters
15:52 Shout-out to good managers everywhere
18:00 Pricing Model Roast — lightning round
19:49 Why hybrid pricing is the “best worst” model
22:12 Usage vs. commitment pricing in the AI era
25:09 Outcome-based pricing and cash-flow pain
31:23 Take-rate pricing and marketplace dynamics
33:29 Momentum is not a moat — but maybe it’s a boat
36:22 How fast companies really move in AI
38:38 Building urgency without burning out your team
41:10 Business Partners: The LinkedIn follower illusion
42:46 The optimal number of direct reports
45:24 Pricing in the Real World — why book publishing is a scam
Episodes Referenced:
The $1 Trillion AI Bubble: Nvidia, OpenAI, and the Feedback Loop
Decoding the Psychology of Price in the Age of AI | Michael Stanisz
996 Culture, Exploding AI Bills & SaaS Chaos
Links:
https://x.com/shamusmadan/status/1978471423522840643/photo/1
https://www.economist.com/business/2025/10/05/bonfire-of-the-middle-managers
https://www.growthunhinged.com/p/7de0e352-fd0f-4f75-bc70-f1adaa483a4a
https://investing101.substack.com/p/momentum-moat
https://www.amazon.com/Formula-Universal-Laws-Success/dp/0316505498
In this episode of Mostly Growth, CJ Gustafson, Kyle Poyar, and Ben Hillman dive into the question on everyone’s mind: are we in an AI bubble? What starts as a lighthearted riff on the U.S. Postal Service launching a podcast quickly spirals into a sharp, funny breakdown of today’s AI hype cycle — from Nvidia, OpenAI, and AMD trading money and GPUs in a trillion-dollar feedback loop, to startups burning cash chasing “AI-powered” everything. The trio share real examples of when AI helps and when it backfires (including one newsletter that totally tanked), debate whether companies are over-optimizing for automation, and laugh through the absurdity of the hype while grounding it in practical insights on product, finance, and growth.
Timestamps:
00:00 Preview and Intro
00:14 Are We in an AI Bubble?
00:44 The AI Money Loop: Nvidia, OpenAI, AMD
01:00 Perplexity, We Caught You
02:18 The Postal Service Launches a Podcast
04:24 How the Team Uses AI (and When It Fails)
06:07 CJ’s DIY Dunning Disaster
08:38 What AI Is Good At — and Where It Breaks
10:49 Perplexity Tries to Gaslight Kyle
13:27 AI vs. AI: Hacking Resume Screeners
16:09 How Recruiters View AI-Generated Resumes
17:17 CJ’s Chief of Staff Hiring Story
19:15 The Data: Is AI Adoption Already Slowing?
22:42 Crossing the Chasm: Early Adopters to Early Majority
26:22 The Streaming Analogy and Forced AI Bundles
28:49 The Circular AI Economy (Everyone Funding Everyone)
31:15 Betting It All on AGI and Data Centers
34:09 The Margin: AI Erotica and the Peak of the Bubble
35:23 Business Blunders: OpenAI’s Token Leaderboard
41:43 What Kyle Tried This Week: Building an AI Agent
44:52 Wrap-Up and Outro
Episodes Referenced:
5,762 Job Applications. Zero Offers.
Why Only 2% of Startups Make It
The War for Talent is just getting started | Joe Floyd
Links:
https://usps-mailin-it.simplecast.com/
https://i.imgflip.com/a92oy5.jpg
https://tabs.inc/webinar/tabs-agent
https://substack.com/@kylepoyar/note/c-159017468?
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/07/business/ai-chatbot-prompts-resumes.html?_bhlid=1b5906cdc6781a738a150d9c32f846ebf11fc318
https://substack.com/home/post/p-175615945
https://ramp.com/data/ai-index?utm_source=econlab.substack.com
https://medium.com/@samuelvandeth/crossing-the-chasm-162802d1cf27
https://x.com/TrungTPhan/status/1922669292929024017/photo/1
https://kyla.substack.com/p/ai-is-the-market-and-the-market-is?r=cxcvo&utm_medium=ios&triedRedirect=true
https://x.com/zerohedge/status/1977902195472322620?s=42
https://topline.beehiiv.com/p/the-era-of-haves-and-have-nots
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cpd2qv58yl5o
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/cj-gustafson-13140948_imagine-getting-called-into-your-cfos-office-activity-7381681514532458496-NOqa/
https://fortune.com/2025/10/01/red-lobster-ceo-damola-adamolekun-comeback-plan-bankruptcy/
https://fortune.com/2024/11/13/red-lobster-ceo-damola-adamolekun-says-endless-shrimp-is-never-coming-back/#
https://www.relay.app/
CJ and Kyle kick things off celebrating their global rise to fame (#10 in Croatia) before diving into what it really takes to grow a podcast from scratch, why second place doesn’t matter in a winner-take-all world, and how only 2% of startups ever make it to $25M ARR—plus a Business Blunders detour into panels nobody wants, children’s play-place pricing gone wild, and the strange genius of The Wonder.
Timestamps:
00:00 Intro: Croatia & Rankings
01:10 #10 in Croatia
02:30 Growing the Pod
04:05 Building an Audience
05:22 Why Most Pods Die
06:30 Finding Audience Fit
07:42 Breaking Into the Top 4
09:15 No Guests, No Problem
10:20 LinkedIn Beats TikTok
11:18 Apple, Spotify, YouTube
12:32 Top of Funnel Focus
14:05 Referral & SEO Plays
16:00 Second Place Doesn’t Count
17:25 Winner Take All Economics
19:10 Uber vs Lyft Example
21:05 The 2% That Make It
23:12 Be Niche or Die Trying
25:00 Pick Fewer Channels
27:50 Harder Than Harvard
30:40 Business Blunders
41:55 Pricing in the Real World
46:00 Wrap Up: Mostly Memberships
Episodes Referenced:
How to Give a Killer Keynote (Without Having a Panic Attack)
996 Culture, Exploding AI Bills & SaaS Chaos
Why Founders Are Posting Sad Dinners
Cowboy Forecasting: The Power of Fast Informed Estimates on the Back of an Envelope
5,762 Job Applications. Zero Offers.
Links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_podcasting
https://www.patriots.com/audio/unfiltered-podcast-archive
https://topline.beehiiv.com/p/the-era-of-haves-and-have-nots
https://substack.com/@kylepoyar/note/c-159017468?
Conference season is back, and CJ and Kyle are swapping stories from the stage—how to nail a keynote, whether conferences are worth the money, and why your walkout song matters more than you think. From there, they dig into a new a16z report revealing where AI startups are actually spending their dollars, and CJ shares results from his summer survey showing that CFOs talk a big game about measuring AI ROI—but nobody knows how to do it. The crew also unpacks how SaaS companies like Slack are bundling AI into their products and hiking prices, before spiraling into a late-night “potentially reliable” rabbit hole featuring a Soviet pole vaulter, beat-and-raise forecasting, and J. Edgar Hoover. They close with lessons on pricing in the real world (yes, Amsterdam’s architecture is involved) and one experiment CJ tried this week.
Timestamps:
00:00 Preview and Intro
01:28 Walkout Songs & Kicking Off Conference Season
03:39 How To Give a Great Keynote and Not Bore the Room
10:10 Are Conferences Worth the Money
14:21 What AI Companies Are Actually Paying For — The a16z Report
20:08 Summer Survey Results: The Elusive ROI of AI
25:45 Why No One Knows How To Measure ROI on AI
29:03 SaaS Companies Forcing AI — Bundling, Pricing, and Pushback
33:57 A Potentially Reliable Thing I Read at 2 AM
35:00 Soviet Pole Vaulter, Beat-and-Raise Forecasting & Hoover’s Borders
39:20 Pricing in the Real World — Lessons from Amsterdam’s Skinny Houses
42:56 Something I Tried This Week — Fixyer
Episodes Referenced:
Are You Bad at LinkedIn… or Is the Algorithm Lying?
Why Founders Are Posting Sad Dinners
Links:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrqSrpOfhWs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmH4iWoJfTo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1tl66trXTQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPmAf5O8cro
https://a16z.com/the-ai-application-spending-report-where-startup-dollars-really-go/
https://d1lamhf6l6yk6d.cloudfront.net/uploads/2025/10/250923-B2B-Top-50-ILG-A-r6.png
https://www.growthunhinged.com/p/how-to-nail-your-next-big-talk
https://www.leahtharin.com/p/113-vincent-pierri-how-to-deal-with
https://www.mostlymetrics.com/p/it-was-the-summer-of-25
https://www.clearspaceliving.com/blog/why-dutch-stairs-are-so-steep/
https://mjwrightnz.wordpress.com/2012/10/28/amsterdams-taxing-narrow-houses/
Kyle officially joins the solopreneur ranks — and immediately finds out that freedom comes with invoices, admin, and double LLC fees. CJ welcomes him to the chaos before breaking down Wealthfront’s IPO, a masterclass in efficiency with 46% EBITDA margins and a Rule of 71. From there, the crew dives into take-private season in SaaS, unpacking why companies like Couchbase and PagerDuty are retreating from the public markets. Then it’s onto LinkedIn chaos — the algorithm, the pitch-slaps, and the mystery of why everyone’s engagement tanked. They close with a tangent only this show could pull off: a Japanese man’s world record sprint on all fours, the surprising Guinness origins, and a lightning round on Waymo’s taxi empire and trying out Stripe.
00:00 – Intro
04:40 – Kyle Goes Solopreneur: What Could Go Wrong?
10:16 – The Wealthfront IPO Breakdown
22:33 – Take-Private Season
27:27 – Private Equity: Efficiency or Exploitation?
32:27 – Are You Bad at LinkedIn, or Is the Algorithm?
43:17 – The LinkedIn Pitch Slap
46:33 – Obscure World Records
48:01 – Lightning Round: Waymo & Stripe
Links
https://www.growthunhinged.com/p/a-new-chapter
https://www.mostlymetrics.com/p/wealthfront-ipo-s1-breakdown
https://www.mostlymetrics.com/p/netskope-ipo-s1-breakdown
https://www.mostlymetrics.com/p/navan-ipo-s1-breakdown
https://www.lookingforleverage.com/p/take-private-szn
https://tuck.dartmouth.edu/news/articles/where-did-all-the-public-companies-go
https://www.axios.com/2024/05/31/vista-equity-pluralsight
https://www.amazon.com/Plunder-Private-Equitys-Pillage-America/dp/1541702107
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/09/business/youth-sports-private-equity.html
https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948/recent-activity/all/
https://x.com/Patticus/status/1456266281833746445
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinness_World_Records#History
https://web.archive.org/web/20120225172648/http://guinness.book-of-records.info/history.html
https://www.stumbeanos.com/wpress/the-story-of-gus-comstock-worlds-coffee-drinking-champion/
AI may be rewriting the playbook for growth, but it’s also leaving behind some of the old startup gospel. CJ and Kyle (with Ben jumping in) dig into what happens when the “rules” no longer fit — from dead frameworks and disappearing SEO traffic to board members quietly checking out.
Is T2D3 Dead? Did AI Kill It?
The “triple-triple-double-double-double” path to $100M ARR worked in the old SaaS world. But what happens when AI companies blow past $100M in less than a year — often with questionable margins and pass-through revenue?
SEO Down 20–40%: Is AEO the Savior?
Google traffic is tanking. ChatGPT is rewriting recommendations. Is “AI Engine Optimization” the new growth channel, or just SEO with a different wrapper?
The Brutal Tech Job Market
CS grads face unemployment rates double those of art history majors. With 5,000+ applications going nowhere, does anyone get hired without networking or Loom videos anymore?
Is Your Board Quiet Quitting?
When growth slows and AI isn’t your story, some VCs go ghost. From missing intros to pushing for M&A, boards are quietly exiting stage left.
Business Blunders
Hospital Bed LinkedIn Photos: Hustle so hard you end up in the ER (and still post about it).
The @Company Non-Tag: Execs copy-paste updates but forget to actually tag anyone. Peak passive-aggressive LinkedIn.
Ramp’s Y-Axis Crime: A 0.4% bump in weekend meals turned into a chart that looked like the apocalypse. Two burritos never looked so big.
Pricing in the Real World: Bob’s Barricades
It’s not Bob, it’s Happy — and he’s quietly running a barricade rental empire. Fifty cents per cone, thousands per site, tens of millions a year. The most Florida business model you’ve ever heard.
Something We Tried This Week
Kyle runs a test with Typeform — what worked, what didn’t, and what it says about the state of survey tools today.
