Carol Blessing is an expert person-centered planning and citizen-centered leadership. Until recently, she was a long-time employee at the Yang-Tan Institute on Employment and Disability at Cornell University. While there, she developed and implemented the Citizen Centered Leadership Development Course, and she has been a fervent advocate for social justice, equity, and inclusivity for people with intellectual and developmental disabilities for nearly 40 years. Carol is recognized for her impactful teaching and dedication to preserving the integrity and intention of person-centered planning.

Episode Summary:

Join host Chris Liuzzo as he delves into the heart of person-centered planning with Carol Blessing on the latest episode of this enlightening podcast series. Sponsored by the New York Alliance for Inclusion and Innovation, this episode sheds light on the core principles of person-centered work and the broader concept of citizenship as a universally inclusive idea.

In this episode, Carol shares her insights from decades of experience in the field, discussing how person-centered planning has evolved over time. She emphasizes the original intent behind these methodologies, which focus on integrating individuals with disabilities into communities as citizens with equal access to opportunities. Carol also shares her thoughts on how person-centered work was co-opted over time, becoming more about checking boxes than truly celebrating shared humanity and social justice. Highlighting voices like Beth Mount and John O'Brien, Carol focuses on reclaiming person-centered planning's roots in social justice and inclusivity.

Key Takeaways:

• Person-Centered vs. Citizen-Centered: Carol Blessing built upon person-centered planning by focusing on the broader concept of citizenship, aiming to cultivate a sense of shared humanity and inclusion.
• Core Ideals of Person-Centered Work: All people are born with inherent gifts and should have equal access to opportunities, emphasizing a shared responsibility toward community contribution.
• Challenges in Current Practices: The integration of person-centered planning into mandates risks losing its foundational purpose, becoming more of a task rather than an empowerment tool.
• Restoring the Ideal of Community: Person-centered planning should evolve to help community members feel comfortable supporting diversity and inclusion, breaking down barriers of unfamiliarity and fear.
• Role of Language: The importance of language in conveying the true essence of citizenship and how it affects perceptions of identity and belonging.

Notable Quotes:

• "The idea of person-centered planning started to devolve…it started to become a thing we do for those people." – Carol Blessing
• "How do we cultivate that sense of shared humanity?" – Carol Blessing
• "All people are born with gifts, capacity, interests, and a higher purpose in life." – Carol Blessing
• "We do what's good for the whole because it makes sense.” – Carol Blessing
• "Communities are missing something when people with disabilities are not there." – Beth Mount as referenced by Carol Blessing

Resources:

• Yang-Tan Institute on Employment and Disability: Explore their resources and work on disability employment (no specific URL mentioned in the transcript).
• New York Alliance for Inclusion and Innovation: Further information about their initiatives and sponsorship.

Stay tuned for more insightful episodes as the series continues to explore and deepen the conversation around person-centered planning and inclusivity. Don't miss out on the full episode for a comprehensive understanding of these vital concepts!

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Beth Gallagher is the CEO and founder of LifeWorks, a person-centered services organization based in San Diego, California. Since its inception, LifeWorks has been focused on providing person-centered support, particularly through supported living services. Gallagher is a prominent figure in advocating for person-centered planning and has co-authored a book titled "Intentional Teaming: Shifting Organizational Culture." Her work extends beyond traditional planning methods, emphasizing the cultivation of a culture that enriches both clients and staff through understanding individual gifts and fostering potential.

Episode Summary:

This episode features Beth Gallagher, CEO of LifeWorks,who provides an enlightening discussion on what person-centered planning truly involves. LifeWorks, a distinguished organization in San Diego, focuses on empowering individuals with supported living services, operating on the belief that person-centered approaches go beyond traditional planning events. This philosophy not only enhances the lives of those they support but also enriches everyone involved in the organization's reach, including the communities in which LifeWorks operates.

Gallagher explains the core principles of LifeWorks, emphasizing that person-centered planning should be a cultural ethos rather than a one-off event. This approach involves fostering a culture of respect, contribution, and maximizing the potential within every interaction LifeWorks engages in—whether with the supported individuals, their families or the employees who serve them. Gallagher elaborates on the story of Joaquin, a former state institution resident now thriving in the community due to LifeWorks' dedicated support. By sharing his remarkable transformation, Gallagher highlights the necessary commitment and the relational foundations required to support individuals authentically. This episode offers a profound insight into the realities of compassionate care and the transformative power of love and community in developmental support services.

Key Takeaways:

• Person-Centered Planning: It's not just an event but a way of life. Person-centered planning should embody a culture of ongoing support and personalized engagement.
• Intentional Teaming: LifeWorks employs a unique management style termed "Intentional Teaming," which emphasizes a supportive and adaptable work environment.

Notable Quotes:

• "Person centered planning is really a culture. It's a way of providing opportunities for people to live their best life."
• "If you don't ask, the answer is always no."
• "He goes to a classroom at SDSU… and he's not killing people and he's not dangerous. He just needs activity… and to be loved."
• "It's got to be 100%, 100%. So Joaquin's trying hard, we're trying hard… to meet in the middle."
• "It's mean… I can't imagine doing this work without having a relationship with the person that I support."

Resources:

• LifeWorks: LifeWorks, Inc. Website (URL not explicitly mentioned in transcript)
• Intentional Teaming Book by Beth Gallagher (no URL provided)
• San Diego State University: Featured due to Joaquin's involvement in community classes

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Hope Leet Dittmeier is the executive director of Mattingly Edge, a nonprofit organization based in Louisville, Kentucky, that is committed to providing person-centered supports. With a focus on social justice, Hope has dedicated her career to advocating for individuals with intellectual and developmental disabilities. Her leadership at Mattingly Edge emphasizes tailored, individualized services that are rooted in values of authentic person-centered planning. Hope's work is recognized for its clarity of purpose and commitment to inclusivity.

In this episode, Chris Liuzzo talks with Hope Liet Dittmeyer about the true meaning of person-centered planning and how it is implemented at Mattingly Edge, a leading organization in Louisville, Kentucky. Hope shares insights into the challenges of working within a system that often inhibits person-centered work, and how Mattingly Edge remains dedicated to upholding its values despite these obstacles.

The conversation delves into the importance of grounding person-centered planning in social justice, emphasizing that holistic support and individualized planning go beyond clinical techniques. Hope explains how Mattingly Edge recruits justice-minded individuals who are passionate about making meaningful changes in the lives of people with disabilities. She addresses the concept of "congregation" and the importance of resisting conventional methods that group people based on disability, fostering instead environments that enhance inclusion and community integration.

Hope also highlights the significance of continuous, relationship-driven person-centered planning that evolves over time. She shares how Mattingly Edge employs innovative goal-setting strategies to explore valued opportunities for the individuals they support. Throughout the discussion, the focus remains on collaboration, trust-building, and perseverance in creating new pathways for community involvement and personal fulfillment.

Key Takeaways:

• Person-centered planning should be grounded in social justice and aim to include individuals with disabilities in all aspects of life.
• Mattingly Edge prioritizes finding justice-minded employees to ensure clarity and commitment to person-centered values.
• Congregation, or grouping by disability, is avoided in favor of personalized support that fosters true community participation.
• Effective person-centered planning is an ongoing process requiring strong relationships and collaborative exploration of new opportunities.
• Courage and partnership are essential elements in achieving successful person-centered outcomes, enabling individuals to exceed previously set limitations.

Resources:

• Mattingly Edge: Mattingly Edge Website
• New York Alliance for Inclusion and Innovation
• New York State Council on Developmental Disabilities
• US Department of Health and Human Services Administration for Community Living

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John O'Brien was a renowned thought leader in the field of person-centered planning and disability advocacy. With extensive experience in promoting the rights and dignity of individuals with intellectual and developmental disabilities, O'Brien contributed significantly to the conceptual and practical understanding of person-centered approaches. He is known for his deep insights into social justice and wealth in its many forms, beyond mere material success. O'Brien's work continues to inspire those committed to fostering inclusive communities and meaningful human connections.

Episode Summary:

In this insightful podcast episode, Chris Liuzzo engages with John O'Brien to uncover the multifaceted concept of real wealth, particularly in the context of person-centered work. The discussion delves into the multiple dimensions of wealth, including not just financial assets but also capabilities, networks, relationships, and spirit. These elements serve as the foundation for achieving a rich, meaningful life, particularly for individuals with intellectual and developmental disabilities.

As the conversation progresses, O'Brien sheds light on the pressing challenges facing this inclusivity effort by identifying the "enemies of real wealth." Through the lens of themes like social devaluation, individualism, and consumerism, he elaborates on these adversarial forces. O'Brien critiques the overemphasis on material wealth and individual effort, highlighting the need for interdependence and authentic human connections. This dialogue calls for awareness and mobilization against these challenges, promoting a more inclusive and supportive community infrastructure.

Key Takeaways:

• Real wealth extends beyond material assets, encompassing capabilities, networks, relationships, and spirit.
• Social devaluation remains a cyclical threat to person-centered work, necessitating vigilance and proactive support systems.
• Individualism and consumerism can undermine community values, reducing human connections to transactional interactions.
• A focus on preference-driven choice can overshadow the deeper human aspirations for a fulfilled civic life.
• Addressing the crisis of care requires more than material solutions; acknowledgment of support providers' real wealth is crucial.

Notable Quotes:

• "Real wealth, as John described it, comes in five forms: money, capabilities, networks, relationships, and spirit."
• "People with intellectual disabilities are an embodied sign of human interdependence."
• "Cynicism undermines spirit, erodes spirit, and individualism makes us afraid to reach out."
• "Our appreciation of what human flourishing can be about under conditions of interdependency collapses into what it costs for me to get my groceries."
• "We've got big adaptive challenges ahead of us. They're here now, but they're going to get bigger."

Resources:

• New York Alliance for Inclusion and Innovation: official website (URL not mentioned in the transcript, but included for context)
• John O'Brien's writings and publications on person-centered planning and developmental disabilities (details not explicitly mentioned in transcript)

Listen to the full episode for a profound exploration of how real wealth and person-centered planning can transform the lives of those with developmental disabilities. Stay tuned for more enlightening content and join us in our journey towards inclusivity and genuine human connection.

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John O'Brien: John O'Brien was a renowned figure in the field of disabilities, celebrated for his contributions to person-centered planning and advocacy for people with disabilities and their families. Over his 50-year career, he engaged in writing, teaching, and consulting globally. John is considered one of the pioneers of person-centered planning alongside his wife, Connie Lyle O'Brien, and colleague Beth Mount. Known for his intellect, generosity, and humor, John was deeply respected in his field.

Episode Summary:

In this insightful episode, host Chris Liuzzo converses with the late John O'Brien about the concept of person-centered work, reflecting on John's impactful career and philosophy. Recorded in May 2025, shortly before John's passing, this discussion offers profound reflections on the notions of disability, dependence, and what constitutes a "good life." John details his thoughts on "real wealth" within person-centered planning

John expands on the importance of shifting perspectives within disability services from simply providing protective oversight to forming relationships that drive shared responsibility in changing the world. He introduces the notion of "real wealth" as a framework comprising assets, capabilities, networks, relationships, and spirit. The conversation delves into the current challenges faced by the Medicaid-dependent support systems and argues for a broader understanding of wealth that includes but extends beyond material measures. John emphasizes an interdependent worldview, encouraging a focus on human flourishing, joy, and the intrinsic value of relationships and spirit in crafting fulfilling lives for people with disabilities.

Key Takeaways:

Shift in Perspective: Transition from protective service models to fostering relationships where there is shared responsibility for creating change.

Concept of Real Wealth: Emphasizes non-material dimensions of wealth, including relationships and spiritual fulfillment, beyond just financial assets.

Interdependence: Highlights the importance of acknowledging the interdependence inherent in human lives, especially evident in the experiences of people with disabilities.

Adaptive Challenges: Discusses the current and future challenges facing Medicaid and support systems, pointing out the importance of recognizing broader societal roles and impacts.

Emphasis on Human Flourishing: Advocates for a shift in dialogue from addressing basic needs to enriching lives through joy, relationships, and personal growth.

Notable Quotes:

"Together we are responsible for changing our world."

"What is it to live a good, full life?"

"Eligibility is an asset, but it's only one."

"People with intellectual disabilities are an embodied sign of human interdependence."

"We need to be conscious of our real wealth."

Resources:

New York Alliance for Inclusion and Innovation

New York State Council on Developmental Disabilities

Medicaid and Social Security Programs

For a deeper understanding of John O'Brien's ideas and to explore more on creating a person-centered world for people with disabilities, listen to the full episode. Stay tuned for more enlightening discussions in this podcast series.

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Carol Blessing is an expert in person-centered planning and inclusion. Recently retired as a Senior Extension Associate at Cornell University, heshas made significant contributions to person-centered work, notably as the author and director of Cornell's Citizen Centered Leadership course. She has collaborated with prominent figures such as John O'Brien and Beth Mount, contributing to works like "Conversations on Citizenship and Person Centered Work." Carol also co-created the person-centered planning method known as "Frameworks for Planning" with Connie Farrell. Her insights into developing community through the 5A's commitments are influential in the field of developmental disabilities.

Episode Summary:

In this episode of our podcast series on person-centered planning, host Chris Liuzzo invites Carol Blessing, an influential voice in the world of inclusion and developmental disabilities, to discuss the intricacies of person-centered planning. This engaging conversation explores the practical applications of developing community through Carol's 5A's commitments model. Listen as Carol shares her journey and elaborates on the motivation behind her influential work. 

Carol Blessing delves deep into the concept of the 5A's commitments—Anchors, Allies, Assistance, Associations, and Agendas—that are vital to building community and enhancing the lives of people with disabilities. Coupled with the influence of John and Connie Lyle- O'Brien's work, Carol discusses the significance of moving individuals from a consumer to a contributor role within society. The episode highlights her unique perspective on how person-centered planning can create inclusive communities that recognize and value every individual's gifts and contributions.

Key Takeaways:

• 5A's Model: The 5A's—Anchors, Allies, Assistance, Associations, and Agendas—are fundamental roles in building supportive communities for people with disabilities.
• Empowerment through Contribution: Moving individuals from consumers to contributors can enhance community life and foster inclusivity.
• Person-Centered Planning Principles: Key ideals include discovering personal gifts, ensuring equal access to opportunities, and recognizing the responsibility of giving back to the community.
• Action-Oriented Plans: Successful person-centered planning requires actionable steps and accountability to avoid plans being forgotten.
• Community Involvement Importance: Increasing community involvement through intentional planning supports societal change and structural improvements.

Notable Quotes:

1. 1."Community building is an intentional move into a new space."
2. 2."Most people won't say no when you ask them to do what they know how to do."
3. 3."Citizenship is at the heart of person-centered work and it is why we do person-centered work."
4. 4."Choose to dwell in possibility. We can't predict what will happen, but we make space for it, whatever it is."
5. 5."Remember the wisdom of John and Connie's book, we are members of each other and together we can make a world of difference."

Resources:

• Unfolding Capacity - Book discussing community-building with people with developmental disabilities.
• Conversations on Citizenship and Person Centered Work - Collaborative work with John O'Brien.
• The New York Alliance for Inclusion and Innovation
• John and Connie O'Brien's chapter: "Members of each Other"

Listeners are encouraged to immerse themselves in the full podcast episode to gain further insights and are invited to tune in regularly for more enlightening discussions in this series.

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Kirk Hinkelman is the Director of Creative Design and Wellbeing at LifeWorks, a renowned human service agency based in San Diego focused on supporting people with disabilities. Kirk has transitioned through various roles within LifeWorks, including coordinator and associate director, as he evolved both professionally and personally. His innovative role centers around creative expression and mindfulness, fostering an environment that emphasizes inner conditions for personal and organizational growth. Kirk is a certified mindfulness meditation teacher, passionately integrating these practices into his work to facilitate well-being for both the teams he leads and the individuals they support.

Episode Summary:

In this enlightening episode, host Chris Liuzzo and Kirk Hinkelman discuss the inner conditions of persons engaged in person-centered planning and their impact on the process. They explore how one’s mindfulness and personal alignment impact the ability to develop relationship and engage in deep listening, the heart of person-centered planning.

Kirk's emphasizes the intersection of finding one's authentic core and assisting others on their journeys towards achieving a life of purpose and alignment. This dialogue unpacks the common challenges faced within the service system and the transformative potential of mindfulness and inner work.

Key Takeaways:

• Inner Alignment Is Critical: Achieving personal alignment and focusing on inner conditions is crucial for effective person-centered planning.
• Beyond Bureaucracy: The episode underscores the importance of personal introspection over external systems and regulations for meaningful progress.
• Belonging and Authenticity: Kirk elaborates on the need for individuals and providers to experience a genuine sense of belonging and authenticity.
• Mindfulness in Practice: The integration of mindfulness and meditation provides a foundation for both personal peace and professional efficacy.
• Collaborative Approach: Kirk advocates for a partnership model in service delivery, emphasizing mutual empowerment and shared growth.

Notable Quotes:

1. 1."If my job as a person-centered planning practitioner is to help someone else get to a place where they can tend to their inner condition… it’s important for me to have a good sense of what my inner condition is."
2. 2."Do I belong here? Well, the answer is yes, we all belong. We innately belong because we were born."
3. 3."At the core and the center of person-centered planning, then as a practitioner, it's really important for me to have a good sense of what my inner condition is."
4. 4."Person-centered planning is a quality of relationship and a quality of listening."
5. 5."Your heart and mind speaking to one another… will lend itself more to being involved with people who are on that same path."

Resources:

• LifeWorks San Diego: lifeworkssd.org (URL inferred but not provided in transcript)
• New York Alliance for Inclusion and Innovation: nyalliance.org (URL inferred but not provided in transcript)

Embark on a journey of mindful transformation by listening to this engaging episode. Discover how aligning personal and professional selves can revolutionize the way we support individuals with disabilities. Stay tuned for more episodes that continue to challenge and inspire perspectives in person-centered planning.

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Jack Pearpoint: Jack , along with Lynda Kahn, is a co-director of Inclusion Press International, based in Toronto, Canada. He is a renowned consultant and innovator in the field of person-centered planning and a founding director of the Marsha Forest Center With years of world-wide experience in developmental disabilities and inclusive practices, Jack has become a thought leader and influential voice in fostering environments that honor individual stories and choices. His work focuses on unlocking the potential within individuals through creative and collaborative approaches, such as graphic facilitation and storytelling. For 16 years, he served as the Director of Canada’s oldest literary organization, Frontier College.

Chris Liuzzo: Chris Liuzzo serves as a consultant to the New York Alliance for Inclusion and Innovation. With a strong commitment to person-centered planning, Chris advocates for creating supportive ecosystems that empower individuals through collaboration and innovation. He hosts insightful conversations with experts and thought leaders in the field, engaging deeply with topics related to inclusion and personal narratives.

Episode Summary:

This episode of the podcast series focuses on the vital theme of "person-centered planning," as expertly discussed by host Chris Liuzzo and guest Jack Pearpoint. Sponsored by the New York Alliance for Inclusion and Innovation and funded by the New York State Council on Developmental Disabilities, the series aims to explore the essence of person-centeredness, the significance of storytelling, and the power of imagery in unlocking potential. Jack Pearpoint shares his unique insights on how stories can reveal untapped capacities within individuals, emphasizing the need to make the "invisible visible."

Throughout the conversation, Jack discusses how the human mind is often limited by rigid scientific approaches and how embracing storytelling and graphic facilitation can lead to deeper connections and understanding. He stresses the importance of listening without biases and allowing individuals to express themselves in their own ways, thus putting them in charge of their own narratives. Person-centered planning is posited as a form of deep listening that transcends traditional methodologies, as Jack illustrates with his experiences and philosophy of using simple doodles to elicit and visualize someone's personal story. This approach not only fosters communication but also builds trust and empowers individuals to take charge of their lives.

Key Takeaways:

Person-centered planning revolves around the practice of deep listening and its ability to unlock the hidden stories within individuals.

Visual tools such as doodling and graphic facilitation can transform the storytelling process by making abstract thoughts visible and tangible.

The traditional Western mindset often restricts imaginative expression; person-centered practices strive to overcome these limitations.

Empowering individuals by involving them in the visualization of their narratives can create environments of trust and safety.

Encouraging individuals to take charge in telling and revising their stories contributes to more authentic and impactful personal planning.

Notable Quotes:

"Our minds have been colonized… the dominant part of our brains work in images." – Jack Pearpoint

"We think and we dream in imagery… stories are the key." – Jack Pearpoint

"It's not about art, it's art light. We're not worried about being Monet." – Chris Liuzzo

"The real task… is to unleash those hidden capacities." – Jack Pearpoint

"Person-centered planning is at its core about deep listening." – Chris Liuzzo

Resources:

New York Alliance for Inclusion and Innovation

New York State Council on Developmental Disabilities

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Lynda Kahn: Lynda Kahn is a former commissioner for the state of Rhode Island’s Department of Behavioral Healthcare, Developmental Disabilities, and Hospitals, where she served from the early 2000s to 2005. With a background deeply rooted in person-centered planning, she is recognized for her advocacy and innovative approaches to disability services and supports. Kahn has worked closely with notable figures in the field, including John O'Brien and Connie Lyle O'Brien, and has been influenced by their work on the five valued experiences and service accomplishment framework. Her distinguished career is marked by her commitment to collaborative, person-centered practices and her role as a facilitator in planning for individuals with disabilities.

Episode Summary:

In this enlightening episode, Chris Liuzzo hosts a compelling discussion with Lynda Kahn, exploring the heart of person-centered planning. As someone who has held influential roles and championed disability rights, Kahn offers a unique perspective on fostering collaboration and recognizing the intrinsic value of each person. Her background as the leader of Rhode Island’s developmental disabilities service system, where she focused on harnessing personal gifts and ensuring conversations are productive and inclusive, forms the backbone of this conversation.

Steeped in the philosophy of person-centered work, Kahn reflects on her tenure as a director and her dedication to promoting facilitation methods that genuinely encapsulate individuals' aspirations and dreams. Throughout the episode, she shares insights on implementing practices like PATH, MAPS, and personal futures planning, shedding light on the difference between mandated service planning and voluntary imaginative planning. This conversation invites listeners to rethink traditional hierarchies in organizational settings and inspires them to envision a future rooted in dialogue and empathetic understanding.

Key Takeaways:

Influence through Collaboration: Kahn highlights the importance of having a facilitative role where collaboration, rather than authority, drives progress in person-centered work.

Conversational Leadership: Person-centered planning involves fostering genuine dialogue, understanding people's dreams, and working collectively toward common goals.

Qualities of Effective Facilitation: An impactful leader should possess a strong moral compass, respect for participant contributions, and strive for an inclusive, personable interaction style.

Voluntary Planning vs. Mandatory Compliance: Genuine person-centered planning should be a consensual process, not a regulatory imposition, allowing people to truly express their aspirations.

Gift Recognition: Identifying and celebrating the unique skills and strengths of each person involved is crucial to successful person-centered planning.

Notable Quotes:

"I learned that nominally seeming to be in charge really meant an extraordinary amount of collaborative work with people."

"It's willed commitments, not requirements."

"This isn't quantum physics, it's simplicity of outcomes."

"Having a moral compass and wanting to be in conversation with people and thinking we can figure this out when we find ourselves disagreeing."

"I wanted to have conversations directly with people."

Resources:

New York Alliance for Inclusion and Innovation

John O'Brien’s work on conversational leadership

PATH, MAPS, and personal futures planning methodologies

New York State Council on Developmental Disabilities

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Lynda Kahn (along with Jack Pearpoint) is a co-director of Inclusion Press International in Toronto, Canada, an organization committed to promoting inclusion and innovation globally. Lynda has an extensive background, having served as the executive director of the Division of Developmental Disabilities in Rhode Island, akin to the role of a state commissioner. She has also been the president of the National Association of State Directors of Developmental Disabilities Services (NASDDS), bringing decades of experience in fostering person-centered practices. She and Jack Pearpoint work to support person-centered planning across the globe, promoting inclusion and creating meaningful, person-centered plans.

Episode Summary:

In this episode of our podcast series on person-centered planning and inclusion, host Chris Liuzzo is joined by distinguished guests Lynda Kahn and Jack Pearpoint. Lynda and Jack bring their wealth of experience as co-directors of Inclusion Press International to discuss the nuances of person-centeredness, its implications and the profound role it plays in planning for individuals with developmental disabilities. This insightful conversation sheds light on the foundational aspects of person-centered work, providing listeners with a deep understanding of how to create environments, both physical and internal, that are conducive to meaningful engagement and innovation.

Lynda Kahn elaborates on the importance of being present, holding curiosity, and embracing uncertainty when engaging with individuals or teams in person-centered work. She highlights how our internal conditions influence the quality of interactions and outcomes. Lynda emphasizes the need to quiet the "voice of judgment" and nurture an open environment where people’s true needs and aspirations can be effectively communicated and understood. The episode also delves into the significance of the physical space in facilitating effective communication and breaking down hierarchies, turning traditional meeting setups into more intimate, engaging environments.

Key Takeaways:

Person-centered work requires being present, holding curiosity, and embracing uncertainty.

The inner condition of the intervener is crucial in ensuring quality outcomes in person-centered planning.

Creating a conducive physical environment is vital, as it influences people's ability to engage and communicate effectively.

Quieting the "voice of judgment" can enhance one’s capacity to listen deeply and respond appropriately.

The arrangement of meeting spaces, such as circles instead of boardrooms, fosters open dialogue and inclusion.

Notable Quotes:

"Being present and curious about the people or teams is essential to a person-centered approach." – Lynda Kahn.

"The inner condition of the intervener has everything to do with the quality of the outcome." – Lynda Kahn.

"There's an energy field present with a group which is vital for effective interaction." – Lynda Kahn.

"Most often, any form of a circle is critical for folks being able to see one another." – Lynda Kahn.

"It is really a privilege to be able to be of service in the work of person-centered planning." – Lynda Kahn.

Inclusion Press International: inclusion.com - A publishing house supporting works on inclusion and innovation.

NASDDS: The National Association of State Directors of Developmental Disabilities Services.

Presencing Institute: An organization offering tools and methods for profound change in business, society, and self.

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Dr. Beth Mount is a pioneer in the field of person-centered planning, known for her innovative approaches to supporting people with disabilities. With over 50 years of dedication, she has created and implemented "Personal Futures Planning," a methodology that emphasizes individualized planning and systemic change. Dr. Mount has been a leading figure in transforming how organizations and systems interact with individuals, making a significant impact in New York and beyond. She has collaborated with various organizations and remains a prominent voice in advocating for community inclusion and organizational reform.

Episode Summary:

In this thought-provoking episode of the podcast series, host Chris Liuzzo invites Dr. Beth Mount to discuss the intricacies of person-centered planning. The conversation explores the fundamental differences between what Dr. Mount refers to as "Person Centered Planning Type 1" and "Type 2," shedding light on how systemic change is vital to empowering individuals with disabilities. Sponsored by the New York Alliance for Inclusion and Innovation and funded by the New York State Council on Developmental Disabilities, the podcast aims to bring forward transformative approaches to inclusion.

Throughout the episode, Dr. Mount elaborates on the necessity of innovation within organizations to truly embrace person-centered work. Using examples from her extensive experience, she underscores the importance of organizational commitment to fostering environments where not just the individuals, but the entire system evolves to support new possibilities. Offering a fresh perspective, other crucial themes include the role of community engagement and the curious, sometimes clever, ways in which resources can be re-imagined and optimized to enhance personal futures. Dr. Mount encourages leveraging the "unexpected treasure troves" within local communities to further the cause of person-centered planning.

Key Takeaways:

• The Evolution of Person Centered Planning: Contrasting Person Centered Planning Type 1 and 2, where Type 2 involves systemic change alongside personalized support.
• Essence of Organizational Change: Highlighting the importance of a committed organizational approach towards supporting individuals beyond mere structural constraints.
• The Ripple Effect: Small-scale innovations within communities can lead to unexpected broader systemic changes.
• Resourcefulness Over Resources: Emphasis on creativity and adaptability over financial investment in enhancing person-centered supports.
• Power of Community: Unlocking local resources and community talents as vital elements for person-centered planning success.

Notable Quotes:

1. 1."Person centered work—you can't separate it from organizational and systems change."
2. 2."We let ideas flow that will be possible in the current structure. Even if we become inventive, we still are not taking on the current structure."
3. 3."Our communities are just unbelievably resourceful in terms of places for people to belong."
4. 4."The real stage where people play out the question of what more is possible, what is my purpose, what is our purpose here together?"
5. 5."The cleverness is often very small, but it represents a resourcefulness that comes from our initiative, not always more money."

Resources:

• New York Alliance for Inclusion and Innovation: Website
• New York State Council on Developmental Disabilities: Website

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Dr. Beth Mount is a renowned leader in the field of person-centered planning. Based in New York City, she created Personal Futures Planning for individuals with disabilities. Dr. Mount is an accomplished artist, author, and one of the foundational inventors of person-centered planning. Her work is influenced by Social Role valorization and she has created pathways for individuals with disabilities to play valued social roles, such as employment. Her dedication extends to restoring the quality of person-centered spaces through deep listening and conversation.

Episode Summary:

In this engaging episode, host Chris Liuzzo interviews Dr. Beth Mount, a pioneer in person-centered planning, to delve into the history and future of person-centered work. Sponsored by the New York Alliance for Inclusion and Innovation, the episode navigates the origins of person-centered planning from the 1980s and its crucial role in social justice movements. The conversation emphasizes creating valued roles for individuals with disabilities and reimagining supportive environments.

Dr. Beth Mount shares compelling ideas on how person-centered planning has evolved and highlights the importance of quality, life-giving spaces during the planning process. By focusing on purposeful and deep listening, the conversation unfolds how genuine transformation occurs, and why it's critical to hold spaces that encourage growth over mere completion of tasks. Blending insights from Cornel West with personal anecdotes, Dr. Mount and Chris Liuzzo explore how disrupting old systems can lead to a more just and inclusive society, filled with creativity and passion.

Key Takeaways:

• Person-Centered Origins: The roots of person-centered planning lie in the social justice movements of the 1960s, aligning with public accessibility to education and the civil rights movement.
• Quality of Spaces: The true essence of person-centered planning is the creation of alive, dynamic spaces that nurture deep listening and curiosity, fostering genuine transformation and connection.
• Disruptive Engagement: Authentic person-centered work often disrupts traditional structures, necessitating systemic change to dismantle ingrained devaluation and support individual roles.
• Challenges of Planning: The episode addresses common pitfalls in person-centered planning today, emphasizing the difference between creative interactions and routine procedural meetings that lack impact.
• Justice and Love: Drawing from Cornel West, justice is portrayed as a public expression of love, exemplifying the fusion of compassion and systemic change within person-centered planning.

Notable Quotes:

• "The way we let our longing in, the way we uncover longing is through deep listening, through really deep listening and through collective listening." – Dr. Beth Mount
• "Never forget that justice is what love looks like in public." – Cornel West, as referenced by Dr. Beth Mount
• "Something shifts in us. Something comes in that is surprising and perhaps even mysterious." – Dr. Beth Mount
• "I've become less interested over the years in plans per se, and much more interested in the quality of the spaces that we're making together." – Dr. Beth Mount
• "Justice is the social expression of love, a way to actively care for others, especially the oppressed, on a societal scale." – Dr. Beth Mount

Resources:

• The New York Alliance for Inclusion and Innovation
• Cornel West - Referenced for his thoughts on justice and love

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Chester Finn is a seasoned advocate and community leader known for his proactive approach to disability rights. With a rich history in advocacy, Chester has built extensive networks to promote inclusivity within and beyond the disability community. A musician and a community activist, Chester is an influential figure in connecting diverse groups through shared interests and mutual understanding.

Episode Summary:

In this enlightening episode of the Housing Journey podcast, host BJ Stasio is joined by Chester Finn, a prominent advocate and community liaison. The conversation delves into the art of building networks beyond the disability community, emphasizing the importance of advocating, understanding, and integrating with the broader society. BJ and Chester share personal anecdotes, offering listeners a glimpse into their journey of empowerment, inclusivity, and resilience.

The discussion kicks off with Chester Finn outlining the challenges and triumphs faced while seeking accessible housing and forming support networks. Chester highlights the significance of family support and online research in navigating the housing landscape. The episode progresses to explore broader concepts of advocacy, emphasizing the power of dialogue and understanding. Chester and BJ discuss the value of community events and social interactions in breaking down barriers, empowering individuals, and fostering a sense of belonging. Whether it's through attending concerts, engaging in conversations, or leveraging community resources, listeners are encouraged to step out, connect, and be active participants in their communities.

Key Takeaways:

• Building a network is crucial for finding suitable and accessible housing.
• Effective advocacy involves understanding, respect, and proactive dialogue.
• Community involvement can significantly enhance personal growth and inclusion.
• The power of asking 'why' can lead to constructive conversations and opportunities.
• It’s important to step beyond comfort zones to engage and form connections with diverse groups.

Notable Quotes:

• "I don't have to be included in the community. I am the community." - Chester Finn
• "People don't do that. They don't listen to each other and they don't understand each other." - Chester Finn
• "It's better to be visible than be invisible and be in a crowd and just sit there and watch things happen." - BJ Stasio
• "If you don't ask for what you want, you don't get it." - Chester Finn
• "Find out what you have in common. Because a lot of times you have more things in common than you think." - Chester Finn

Resources:

• New York Housing Resource Center: [link not provided in transcript]
• U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Administration for Community Living
• New York State Council on Developmental Disabilities

For more insightful conversations and to learn more about the intertwined journeys of advocacy, community, and personal development, make sure to listen to the full episode. Stay tuned for more enriching content from the Housing Journey podcast series.

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BJ Stasio is a distinguished disability rights advocate and activist known for his direct involvement in driving systemic change for individuals with disabilities. As a "respectful agitator," BJ has dedicated himself to fostering inclusivity and support systems that empower those with disabilities. He's not just a self-advocate but someone who has curated conversations that lead to impactful enhancements in the community. BJ's work revolves around the principle of transforming perceived disadvantages into strengths by emphasizing humanity and connectivity within support networks.

Carol Napierski is part of the New York Alliance for Inclusion & Innovation, an organization dedicated to promoting inclusion opportunities and innovative solutions. With her extensive background, Carol offers significant insights into creating supportive communities and developing natural, reciprocal relationships.

Episode Summary:

In this insightful episode of "A Housing Journey," hosted by the New York Housing Resource Center, BJ Stasio engages in a thought-provoking discussion with Carol Napierski on establishing and nurturing natural supports for people with disabilities. The conversation delves into the heart of what natural support means, contrasting it with paid support systems, and exploring BJ's personal experiences and definitions that illustrate the transformative power of these relationships.

BJ introduces the concept of natural supports as "trusted safety nets" that fill in when paid support is unavailable. He emphasizes the unique, unfiltered interactions he enjoys with his natural supports compared to structured engagements with professional aids. Throughout the conversation, BJ and Carol discuss methods to foster and sustain these vital connections, highlighting the importance of mutual respect, active listening, and personal investment in relationship cultivation. This approach underscores the core theme of the episode: redefining support systems in a way that removes labels and enhances human experience and interaction.

Key Takeaways:

• Natural Supports as Safety Nets: BJ redefines natural supports as trusted safety nets that provide unfiltered support in a way that professional aids cannot.
• Difference Between Paid and Natural Supports: The conversation highlights that while professional supporters have specific goals to accomplish, natural supports allow for a more genuine, reciprocal exchange.
• Humanizing Support Systems: By removing labels and engaging in reciprocal relationships, support systems become more human and effective.
• Building and Sustaining Relationships: Effective relationships are cultivated by being open, listening actively, and engaging reciprocally without preconceived notions or judgments.
• Self-empowerment and Grace: BJ advocates for giving oneself grace in building relationships and emphasizes the importance of engaging with a network that supports personal needs and ambitions.

Notable Quotes:

• "I no longer look at myself as a self-advocate. I look at myself as a respectful agitator." – BJ Stasio
• "A natural support is basically somebody who just can be there to listen." – BJ Stasio
• "Take the labels off of the thing and start living life as the human being you are." – BJ Stasio
• "Give yourself some grace and develop a system of support or a system of friendship that works for you." – BJ Stasio
• "It's all about you. And remember always to listen and don't suck the air out of the room with your problem." – BJ Stasio

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BJ Stasio

BJ Stasio is a dedicated advocate and host of the Housing Journey podcast. He has extensive experience working with services like the Office for People With Developmental Disabilities (OPWDD) and the Department of Health (DoH), facilitating personal care and mental health support. Known for his activism, BJ is deeply engaged in forming and working with circles of support to aid individuals with disabilities.

Carol Napierski

Carol Napierski serves with the New York Alliance for Inclusion Innovation. Her work focuses on fostering inclusive practices and supporting persons with disabilities through diverse initiatives and discussions, such as those highlighted in her appearance on this podcast.

Episode Summary:

Discover the profound impact of creating a circle of support in this insightful episode of the Housing Journey podcast, hosted by BJ Stasio. Join BJ and Carol Napierski from the New York Alliance for Inclusion Innovation, as they discuss the importance of having trusted individuals in your life who guide and assist you in decision-making and navigating life's challenges. Learn how BJ cultivates his circle of support and the lifelong value it represents.

BJ Stasio shares his innovative approach to building a "circle of support," emphasizing the network's role in providing guidance, accountability, and familial bonds. The discussion centers around selecting trusted members who offer diverse perspectives, aiding BJ in managing his advocacy efforts and personal goals. At the heart of the conversation is the belief that everyone should build a supportive network, no matter the duration of each member's involvement—aptly referred to as a "season" by BJ. This ensures that the right support is always accessible when most needed for life decisions, whether related to housing, services, or personal growth pathways.

Key Takeaways:

• A circle of support is a network of trusted individuals who help guide significant life decisions and personal development.
• BJ emphasizes choosing members who are diverse and can provide unique insights while holding him accountable.
• The concept of a "season" in support networks suggests that not all relationships are permanent, highlighting the importance of evolving support systems.
• Despite disagreements, the circle's guidance typically offers valuable perspectives that are often correct upon reflection.
• Engagement methods have evolved post-COVID, with BJ leveraging multiple channels like phone, video, and in-person meetings to keep his circle actively involved.

Notable Quotes:

• "I consider my circle of support my super friends—they guide me in life and services."
• "The support my circle gives could change the outlook of the way things are going to go for me."
• "I choose to keep the people on my circle because I love them and I value them."
• "Every human being, whether you have a disability or not, should have a good network of people around them."
• "A circle of support is there to support you; that's why it's called the circle of support."

Resources:

• The New York Housing Resource Center: https://nyhrc.org/
• The New York State Council on Developmental Disabilities: https://nyhrc.org/

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Sam Mattle: Sam Mattle is the Executive Director of the Center for Self Advocacy, a regional self-advocacy organization based in Buffalo, New York. With a commitment to empowering individuals with disabilities, Sam plays a pivotal role in advocating for the rights and needs of this community.

Mike Rogers: Mike Rogers holds multiple influential positions, including Regional Organizer for the Self Advocacy Association of New York State in Buffalo, President of the Board of Visitors for New York State in Western New York, and President of the Board at the Center for Self Advocacy. His extensive involvement in advocacy underscores his dedication to fostering inclusivity and support for individuals with disabilities.

Episode Summary:

In this engaging episode of the Housing Journey podcast, host BJ Stasio converses with Sam Mattle and Mike Rogers about their unique experiences as roommates. Both Sam and Mike bring a wealth of insight through their professional and personal journeys advocating for disability rights and living independently in Buffalo, New York. This episode delves into the dynamics of shared living arrangements, the challenges faced, and the important support systems that individuals with disabilities rely upon.

The discussion explores the benefits and drawbacks of living with a roommate, especially when both individuals have disabilities. Sam and Mike highlight their growth as roommates, emphasizing the importance of mutual support and autonomy. They address the common misconception that roommates with disabilities are inseparable and share everything, pointing out that they each maintain their personal lives while supporting each other as needed. This episode also shines a light on the housing challenges for individuals with disabilities, such as the scarcity of accessible and affordable housing options, both in the low-income bracket and for those earning more. As advocates, Sam and Mike express the need for policy changes to accommodate those striving for greater independence through work and self-employment.

Key Takeaways:

• Living with a roommate can provide both support and companionship, which is particularly valuable for people with disabilities.
• Effective communication and negotiation, including regarding shared finances, are essential for successful cohabitation.
• Current housing options often fail to meet accessibility needs, especially for those not qualifying as low income.
• There's a pressing need for universally accessible housing that accommodates people with disabilities, regardless of income.
• Sam and Mike encourage individuals with disabilities to try living independently instead of fearing potential challenges.

Resources:

•  New York Housing Resource Center (NYHRC)
• Center for Self Advocacy Inc.
• Self Advocacy Association of New York State

Join us for this enlightening episode to learn more about the lived experiences and insights of Sam and Mike. Stay tuned for more enriching discussions on the Housing Journey podcast.

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Tim Elliott is a dedicated housing counselor based in New York City, specializing in finding affordable and accessible housing solutions for residents. With over 15 years of experience in real estate and an extensive background in mortgage consultancy, Tim brings a wealth of knowledge to his role. He is also an ABLE ambassador, advocating for financial empowerment of individuals with disabilities and promoting the benefits of ABLE accounts for improved savings and financial planning.

Episode Summary:

Join us in this engaging episode of the “A Housing Journey” Podcast, hosted by BJ Stasio, as we explore the challenges and solutions in the New York City housing market with expert guest Tim Elliott. Known for his vast experience as a housing counselor, Tim shares his insights on navigating the complex real estate environment faced by many residents, touching on topics ranging from budgeting and credit management to ensuring accessibility in housing for people with disabilities.

In this episode, BJ and Tim delve into the ever-rising costs of housing in New York City and the struggle for affordable living spaces. They address the tactics landlords use to drive up rent prices and the high demand for rental units. Housing affordability is tackled head-on, with discussions on budgeting and managing credit history, helping individuals prepare financially for renting or buying. Additionally, listeners gain insight into the unique challenges faced by individuals with disabilities, including accessibility issues in new housing developments.

Moreover, Tim emphasizes the importance of savings strategies, encouraging listeners to establish online savings accounts for better financial management. He also highlights the benefits of ABLE accounts, an initiative that allows people with disabilities to save money without impacting their benefits. Drawing from his extensive experience in the field, Tim offers seasoned advice for individuals looking to secure housing that fits their financial and accessibility needs.

Key Takeaways:

• Rent prices in New York City are influenced by competition among landlords and high demand for rental units.
• Effective budgeting and credit management are crucial when seeking affordable housing.
• Accessibility in housing for people with disabilities remains a significant challenge, often overlooked in new developments.
• Online savings accounts provide a secure way to manage finances and build savings for housing.
• ABLE accounts offer a viable savings option for individuals with disabilities, allowing them to save without affecting benefits.

Resources:

•  New York Housing Resource Center (NYHRC)
• ABLE National Resource Center

Tune in to the full episode to gain deeper insights from BJ Stasio and expert Tim Elliott on navigating housing affordability and accessibility challenges. Stay plugged into the Housing Journey Podcast for more enlightening conversations and tips on finding your way through the housing maze.

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Marie Malinowski: Marie is a homeowner with a disability who shares her personal journey of transitioning from renting to owning her own home. Her story reflects resilience and determination, showcasing her ability to navigate challenges and leverage support systems designed for people with disabilities. Through her experience, Marie offers valuable insights into homeownership and the resources that made it possible for her to purchase and maintain her home despite the obstacles she faced.

Episode Summary:

In this episode of “A Housing Journey”, host BJ Stasio welcomes Marie Malinowski, a remarkable individual who shares her inspiring journey to homeownership. Marie details how she transitioned from apartment living to owning her own home, emphasizing the importance of investing in oneself and overcoming preconceptions about people with disabilities in the housing market. This insightful discussion not only highlights Marie's personal story but also sheds light on broader topics such as disability rights, financial planning, and home adaptations.

Marie recounts her experiences of dealing with uncooperative landlords and unsanitary apartment conditions, which motivated her to pursue homeownership as an investment in her future. Leveraging support from the Office for People with Developmental Disabilities and the "Home of Your Own" program, she navigated financial and personal readiness challenges. With 19 years of ownership under her belt, Marie provides a glimpse into the world of accessible housing and the ongoing support available for people with disabilities, including future-proofing homes for aging-in-place. Her story is a testimony to the power of community resources and personal determination.

Key Takeaways:

• Marie emphasizes the significance of investing in oneself and seeking homeownership as a viable option for people with disabilities.
• Despite a lack of initial knowledge, Marie successfully leveraged available support programs to achieve her goal.
• Her story highlights the need for more accessible housing programs and financial education tailored to people with disabilities.
• Homeownership can offer both financial benefits and a sense of independence compared to renting.
• Ongoing support and adaptations for aging or increasing disability needs are crucial in long-term homeownership.

Resources:

• "Home of Your Own" program through the Office for People with Developmental Disabilities
• New York Housing Resource Center (NYHRC)

Listeners can glean much from Marie's story, and we invite you to tune in to this enlightening episode for a firsthand account of the challenges and triumphs in securing a home as a person with a disability. Stay connected with “A Housing Journey” for more stories that inform and inspire.

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BJ Stasio is the host of "A Housing Journey Podcast" by the New York Housing Resource Center. BJ brings a wealth of experience in navigating the housing landscape and sharing stories that emphasize accessibility and inclusivity in housing. His insights are drawn from personal experiences and interactions with industry experts.

Luke Cusack is a property manager or landlord who shares perspectives on making housing more accessible. Their identity and professional background weren't detailed in the transcript, but they provide valuable insights on affordable modifications in housing to accommodate diverse needs.

Episode Summary:

In this insightful episode of the New York Housing Resource Center’s podcast, "A Housing Journey," host BJ Stasio delves into the complexities of creating accessible living spaces. This episode is part of the larger episode 2. Together with Luke Cusack, they navigate the challenges of making existing housing more accessible without the hefty price tag that often accompanies such renovations. Drawing from personal experience, BJ highlights the innovation and research that can lead to practical and affordable solutions.

This episode specifically tackles the issue of modifying a bathroom to accommodate a disability, a task often deemed costly and complex. BJ recounts his experience of initially facing a $45,000 estimate to remodel his bathroom for accessibility. However, with creative problem-solving and resourcefulness, a $2,000 solution was found involving a customizable ramp system. Keywords like "accessible living," "housing adaptations," "cost-effective renovations," and "practical solutions" highlight this journey of overcoming accessibility challenges.

The conversation further uncovers the broader obstacles faced in promoting accessible housing. It emphasizes the importance of moving beyond conventional methods and exploring diverse options tailored to individual needs. BJ's personal story and the innovative ramp solution serve as a testament to the possibilities that creativity and determination can unveil in accessible housing development.

Key Takeaways:

• Accessible housing modifications can be achieved without exorbitant costs by researching and exploring alternative solutions.
• Innovative systems like modular ramp solutions can effectively replace more expensive renovation projects.
• Collaboration and resourcefulness are key in overcoming housing accessibility challenges.
• Real-world experiences highlight the importance of personalized approaches to accessible living.
• Continuous research and adaptation of existing resources can lead to more durable and cost-effective housing modifications.

Resources:

• New York Housing Resource Center (NYHRC)
• U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Administration for Community Living
• New York State Council on Developmental Disabilities

Tune in to "A Housing Journey" to experience more stories of innovation and resilience in overcoming housing challenges. Stay informed and inspired with every episode, bringing insightful conversations and practical solutions to your housing journey.

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BJ Stasio is the host of "A Housing Journey Podcast" by the New York Housing Resource Center. BJ brings a wealth of experience in navigating the housing landscape and sharing stories that emphasize accessibility and inclusivity in housing. His insights are drawn from personal experiences and interactions with industry experts.

Luke Cusack is a property manager or landlord who shares perspectives on making housing more accessible. Their identity and professional background weren't detailed in the transcript, but they provide valuable insights on affordable modifications in housing to accommodate diverse needs.

Episode Summary:

In the compelling kickoff to Season Two of "A Housing Journey Podcast," host BJ Stasio delves into the intricacies of creating accessible housing with input from a forward-thinking property manager. This episode, which is part of the larger episode 2, sheds light on the challenges and triumphs of implementing environmental modifications in new buildings. Through real-world examples, the discourse emphasizes the importance of inclusivity, aiming for sustainable solutions that benefit both tenants and property managers.

BJ and his guest, a property manager committed to accessibility, discuss how access solutions need not be costly or inconvenient. They explore how simple modifications can significantly enhance the quality of life for residents with disabilities. By sharing experiences such as BJ's relief from navigating entryways effortlessly, the episode underscores how these improvements contribute to a universally designed housing environment. With support from the Health and Human Services Administration for Community Living, the conversation drives home the significant impact of accessible design on independent living.

Key Takeaways:

• Accessibility in housing doesn't necessarily require expensive or drastic changes; cost-effective solutions exist that can greatly improve quality of life.
• Creating environments where tenants with disabilities can live independently should be a priority for landlords and property managers.
• BJ shares real-life experiences highlighting the challenges and successes of living in accessible housing.
• Insights from both tenant and landlord perspectives demonstrate a collaborative approach to achieving accessibility.
• Policies supporting accessible living are driven by government sponsorship and organizational initiatives, seeking continuous improvement in housing design.

Resources:

• New York Housing Resource Center (NYHRC)
• U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Administration for Community Living
• New York State Council on Developmental Disabilities

Stay tuned for more episodes of "A Housing Journey" as BJ Stasio continues to explore vital topics in accessible housing, bringing in special guests who share their expertise and experiences to enlighten and engage the audience.

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