🎙️ Apostles: Generals, Gardeners…or Something Else?
In this Bonus Conversation, Rob Wegner, Alan Hirsch, and Brian Johnson gather over pizza to explore why apostolic leadership has become a crossroads moment for the Church.
They unpack two radically different visions: apostles as empire-building generals vs. apostles as humble architects who cultivate Gospel ecosystems. From Alan’s personal stories (including being recruited by a secret dominionist cabal) to reflections on the Seven Mountains Mandate, this conversation names the tensions—and offers a better way forward.
Listen in as they discuss:
The dangers of power and platform without accountability
Why we need both Pauline (pioneering) and Petrine (remissionalizing) apostles
How dominion language drifts from the way of Jesus
Practical steps for living into decentralized, relational, generative leadership
💡 For more resources, articles, and tools, visit starfishyou.substack.com.
Bonus Conversation: Same Vocabulary, Different Spirit
What happens when the same fivefold vocabulary is used—but fueled by a radically different spirit?
In this episode, Rob Wegner, Brian Johnson, and Alan Hirsch dive into the fork in the road facing the Church today. On one side: the rise of the New Apostolic Reformation, steeped in hierarchy, dominion theology, and Christian nationalism. On the other: the Spirit-distributed, Jesus-shaped model of Ephesians 4 ministry—where power is cruciform and every disciple is activated.
This conversation unpacks why fivefold leadership isn’t just a theological side note—it’s a discipleship crisis, a leadership reckoning, and a call to rewild the Church. Same vocabulary. Different spirit. Totally different outcomes.
🔗 Read the full companion article and join the conversation at starfishyou.substack.com
Bonus Conversation: The Rise of the Servant Equippers (ft. Lucas Pulley)
Episode Description:
What kind of leadership helps movements multiply without losing their soul? In this Bonus Conversation from the Hubology series, Rob, Brian, and Lucas Pulley (Tampa Underground) unpack the hidden role of servant equipers—those who quietly cultivate health, support microchurch leaders, and build only the structures the vine actually needs.
They explore the power of invisible leadership, the difference between hub teams and governing elders, and why you should never build what you don’t yet need.
Whether you’re planting your first microchurch or navigating how to scale a decentralized network, this conversation offers grounded wisdom, practical frameworks, and a whole lot of laughter (and hot pink cast drama).
🎧 More conversations, articles, and resources at: https://starfishyou.substack.com
#microchurch #disciplemaking #movementleadership #decentralizedchurch #starfishandthespirit
In this bonus episode, Rob and Brian tackle one of the most pivotal questions in movement leadership: When is it time to form a hub team? Drawing from years of experience with the Kansas City Underground, they explore why starting with structure can sabotage multiplication—and how waiting on the Spirit’s timing creates space for healthy, decentralized networks to flourish.
You’ll hear stories, biblical insights, and practical frameworks for discerning the right time to equip, coach, and convene through a hub team. Plus, learn about our free Hub Development Cohort and the KC Underground Intensive coming this summer.
👂 What You’ll Learn:
– Why forming a hub too early can kill a movement
– The three core functions of every hub team
– How to recognize emerging servant-equipers in your city
– The role of extraordinary prayer and fasting in network formation
📍 For more: starfishyou.substack.com
🌐 Apply for the next Hub Cohort: kcunderground.org
In this Bonus Conversation, we explore the power of contextualization within decentralized movement leadership through a deep dive into two distinct hubs in the Kansas City Underground: Zero Hour, equipping high school students, and Western Edge, serving a broad suburban and rural network.
Cory McElvain (Zero Hour) and Brian Johnson (Western Edge) join us to share how they each adapt the core functions of equipping, coaching, and convening for their unique communities. From student-led microchurches to intergenerational discipleship, this conversation offers real-world insight into the beauty and challenge of contextual leadership.
🔑 Key Highlights:
Contextualization in Action: Compare how a youth-focused hub and a multi-demographic hub live out the same movement principles differently.
Equipping Students vs. Families: Learn how training content is adapted—from 4-week essentials to deep dives with seasoned leaders.
Real-Time Coaching vs. Long-Form Mentoring: Hear how coaching rhythms flex with life stage and context.
Different Models of Convening: Explore how monthly student gatherings contrast with long-term rhythms of adult fellowship and planning.
One Movement, Many Expressions: Discover why contextualization isn’t optional—it’s essential in decentralized systems.
📖 This conversation builds on the companion article: “No Two Hubs Are the Same.”
🎧 Listen now and learn how leaders are innovating with courage and care to multiply disciple-makers in diverse soil.
🔗 Read, share, and subscribe for more conversations from the frontlines of missional movement: https://starfishyou.substack.com/
Bonus Conversation: Equipping Gatherings vs. Weekend Services - What's the Difference?
In this bonus episode, we explore how equipping gatherings form a radically different culture than weekend services. It’s not about inspiration—it’s about incarnation. From stories of mission to discovery-based training, these gatherings function more like a gym than a theater, equipping ordinary people to live as everyday disciple-makers.
🎧 Listen now, and get the companion article, and then dive deeper at starfishyou.substack.com
In this Bonus Conversation, we dive into the heart of equipping—the very lifeblood that powers decentralized disciple-making. As we explore hubs, tools, and training, we uncover the core of equipping at the edge. This isn't about more content; it’s about transforming lives and multiplying Kingdom work through intentional, practical support. Check out the companion article over at https://starfishyou.substack.com/
Key Takeaways:
🔥 Tools Matter
When it comes to disciple-making, tools aren't optional—they're essential. In fact, tools are a core part of how we equip ordinary people to live extraordinary lives on mission. From context mapping (apostolic + evangelistic) to lament practices (prophetic + shepherding), tools help activate action, shape culture, and drive transformation.
🔥 Equipping Through Action, Not Ideas
Discipleship isn’t learned through content dumps; it’s learned through practice. People act their way into new ways of thinking. Just like plumbers need wrenches, disciple-makers need tools—simple, repeatable tools that lead to action.
🔥 Training Huddles: High Support, High Challenge
In a hub, equipping isn't a passive experience. It's a relational space where everyday people are coached to lead. Training huddles offer high support and high challenge, flipping the classroom dynamic. No gurus here—just facilitators who help midwife what the Spirit is already birthing in the lives of disciple-makers.
🔥 Equipping Frameworks: Holistic Tools for Growth
Our equipping isn’t random. It’s based on intentional frameworks that help disciple-makers see their journey—tools, training, and rhythms that go beyond mere theory. The Disciple-Maker Pathway lays out five interconnected phases of growth—prayer, incarnational mission, planting the Gospel, microchurch emergence, and multiplication.
🔥 Context is Key
Equipping isn’t one-size-fits-all. It's contextual. The tools we use, the huddles we create, and the frameworks we build are all shaped by the environments we’re in. As we evolve, we listen—what are the gaps? Where are we getting stuck? And how can we adapt?
The Bottom Line:
Equipping is always evolving. It’s about listening to the Holy Spirit, staying humble, and adapting to the needs of the edge. As we listen, learn, and lean into Jesus, we create space for people to grow and multiply—becoming the hands and feet of Jesus in their everyday places.
In this Bonus Conversation, we launch our new series on Hubology—a made-up word for a very real need in decentralized movements. As disciple-making spreads and microchurches multiply, one essential structure keeps emerging again and again: the Hub Team.
So what is a hub? Not a headquarters. Not a hierarchy.
A hub is a catalytic team that equips, coaches, and convenes a network of disciple-makers and microchurches within a specific geography or affinity. This isn’t theory—it’s the practical trellis that helps sustain and multiply the wild vine of movement.
🔥 Hubs emerge organically.
🔥 Minimal hubology = three core functions.
🔥 Equipping = tools, not just ideas.
🔥 Coaching = presence, not just expertise.
🔥 Convening = catalytic connection.
🔥 No cookie cutters. Hubs are contextual. T
Check out the companion article and join the conversation over at https://starfishyou.substack.com/
Millar
In this episode of The Starfish and the Church, I sat down with Dr. Longa and Matt Millar, co-authors of The Church in Context: Harnessing Cultural Humility for Kingdom Advancement (coming soon). Drawing from decades of cross-cultural ministry and leadership across Africa, North America, and beyond, they unpack what it means to move beyond strategies and into postures that reflect the incarnation of Jesus.
We explore:
Join the convesation over at https://starfishyou.substack.com/
In this episode, you get to eavesdrop on a Starfish Accelerator, and hear from Lance Ford, as wee unpack the idea of a system story—the invisible narrative that shapes how we lead and live. Drawing from scripture and missional thought, we explore why real change in the church won’t happen until we rewrite the system story around the Lordship of Jesus.
We contrast institutional leadership with Kingdom leadership, and challenge listeners to embrace a story of shared power, servanthood, and Spirit-led movement.
👉 Dig deeper with the companion article at starfishyou.substack.com
Alan brought the heat and light in the Starfish Accelerator , pouring out his heart on Incarnational Mission.
Now, it's here for you—to challenge, inspire, and equip both you and those you disciple and serve. What does it mean to truly live the mission of Jesus? In this episode, we unpack the Six P’s of Incarnational Mission—Presence, Proximity, Prevenience, Powerlessness, Passion, and Proclamation—as a framework for disciple-making that flows from the way of Jesus.
We explore how to root ourselves in a place, embrace servanthood, and join what God is already doing. Plus, we share practical next steps to live this out.
👉 Dig deeper with the companion article at starfishyou.substack.com
👉 Resources Mentioned: Relational Mapping | Mapping Your Neighborhood
Listen in and let’s put this into practice. 🎧 #IncarnationalMission #DiscipleMaking #StarfishAndTheChurch
Join the Starfish Substack for free.
If our training methods don’t look like Jesus’ way of making disciples, why do we expect Jesus-like results?
In this Bonus Conversation, we dive into a topic that is easy to overlook but is critical for the multiplication of disciples and leaders—pedagogy.
That’s right. We’re talking about how we train people, not just what we train them in. Why? Because the way we train people shapes the very culture of our disciple-making efforts. We need a pedagogy that matches our mission.
📄 We’re dropping a follow-up article unpacking KC Underground’s Pedagogy, and hope to hear about yours as well.
Is a prayer movement something we’re waiting for—or something Jesus is already leading?
In this episode, we unpack the five coals that ignite and sustain a culture of extraordinary prayer. We start with the story of Esther, an elderly woman whose hidden life of intercession shaped generations. From there, we explore what it takes to cultivate a movement where prayer isn’t just preparation for the work—it is the work.
🔥 Personal Embodiment – Are we modeling the prayer life we call others to?
🔥 Paradigmatic Frameworks – How do we shift our understanding of prayer from routine to mission-fueled?
🔥 Practical Tools – Are our prayer rhythms simple, reproducible, and Spirit-led?
🔥 Public Rhythms – How do we weave prayer into everyday life—personally and corporately?
🔥 Permission to Prune, Produce, and Reproduce – Are we making space for new expressions of prayer to multiply?
Through real stories, scripture, and practical insights, we challenge you to step deeper into a life of abiding, contending, and multiplying prayer.
Join us as we rediscover what it means to wake up to the movement Jesus is already leading. Head over to https://starfishyou.substack.com/
🎧 Listen now and share your reflections in the comments!
One of the powerful disciple-making tools we’ve been exploring this month in the Starfish Accelerator is the Relational Spheres of Jesus—a framework that helps us map out our relational world based on Jesus’ own pattern of ministry. Recently, Rich Robinson walked us through this tool with remarkable clarity, helping us see how Jesus intentionally structured His relationships and how we can do the same.
This tool is endlessly relevant for disciple-makers in all contexts and all forms of the church. For those in traditional church settings looking for a practical way to transition into a incarnational disciple-making paradigm, this tool can serve as a launching pad. It offers a simple but profound way to rethink how we invest in relationships and organize our life and time for mission of disciple-making.
Join the the Starfish Substack for free. You'll gain access to you’ll gain access to practical wisdom, articles, tools, assessments and insights that foster your growth as a Starfish Leader
In this Hot Takes episode, Rob Wegner, Alan Hirsch, Lance Ford, and Chris Caputo explore the rise of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) and its implications for leadership and the church. Prompted by the Atlantic article, “The Army of God Comes Out of the Shadows,” they discuss the influence of NAR's dominion theology, its ties to political power, and the distortion of fivefold ministry into hierarchical authority.
The conversation unpacks the dangers of power-centric leadership and the profound need for collaborative, servant-hearted approaches that reflect Jesus' way of humility. They emphasize a shift from dominance to relational accountability, with a call for emotionally and spiritually mature leadership.
Stay tuned for the companion article tomorrow at he Starfish Substack:
Join the the Starfish Substack for free. You'll gain access to you’ll gain access to practical wisdom, articles, tools, assessments and insights that foster your growth as a Starfish Leader
In the latest episode of The Starfish and the Church Podcast, Rob Wegner sits down with Dele Okuwobi, founder of the Wonder Association, to explore the profound lessons the Black and Brown church in America offers for movemental leadership. This conversation reframes the way we think about movement DNA (mDNA), inviting us to look closer to home for inspiration instead of always gazing overseas.
Learn to Build Communitas
Embrace Prophetic Leadership
Integrate THICK Kingdom Theology
Seek Mutual Partnerships
Adopt a Decentered Approach
Engage Locally for mDNA Insights
Understanding the historical context of oppression is crucial for effective ministry.
APEST assessments can help identify and mitigate the weaponization of gifts.
Resources are being developed to better understand and utilize APEST dynamics.
Deconstructing and reconstructing core doctrines is essential for modern faith communities.
In this bonus conversation, Rob Wegner and Brian Johnson tackle a pressing question heard from many church leaders in recent years: Is it possible to transition small groups to microchurches? Drawing from years of experience and coaching, they share candid insights and hard-earned wisdom (also called mistakes and failure) about the challenges and opportunities involved in this shift.
This discussion builds on themes from the yesterday’s article Transitioning Small Groups into Microchurches, offering practical advice, personal stories, and thoughtful reflections on the cultural and spiritual dynamics at play.
Here are a few highlights:
Breaking the Social Contract: Why the foundational promises of small groups—community and content—differ from the mission-driven identity of microchurches and how this impacts transitions.
The Long Game: Transitioning isn’t a quick fix. It requires three to five years of patient investment, starting with a few committed leaders and multiplying over time.
Parallel Pathways: Instead of trying to overhaul small groups, Rob and Brian describe how Westside Family Church created a separate track for microchurches, allowing both systems to thrive side by side.
Identity and Mission: Helping small group leaders embrace a new identity as disciple-makers and missionaries, focusing on planting the gospel in their unique networks of relationships.
The Role of the Spirit: Encouragement for leaders to trust incremental progress, celebrate small wins, and recognize that even modest shifts toward mission and incarnation can bear significant fruit.
This conversation is an inspiring call to reimagine how we approach disciple-making and church formation. Whether you’re exploring microchurches for the first time or seeking to deepen your practice, Rob and Brian’s insights are a valuable guide.
🎧 Catch the full video above and join the conversation in the comments.
📄 Related article: The Difference Between Small Groups and Microchurches.
📚 Learn more about disciple-making environments and microchurch multiplication at Kansas City Underground.
#Microchurches #DiscipleMaking #Leadership #Starfish #ChurchInnovation
The Difference Between Small Groups and MicrochurchesStarfishyoU·
In this episode of The Starfish and the Church, we had a powerful conversation with my friend Jeff Vanderstelt, who stepped into the chaos after Mark Driscoll’s departure from Mars Hill.
This is the story the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill Podcast chose not to tell you.
We covered:
Jeff shares how he led with love, walked alongside wounded people, and helped a broken community rediscover health, unity, and mission. He also challenges us to be “with people in their pain,” echoing the beauty of Emmanuel—God with us.
Join the Starfish Substack.
Healing what's within. How do we heal? Where do we begin? What questions do we need to ask?
In this thought-provoking conversation, Rob Wegner, Lance Ford, and Michelle and Chuck DeGroat delve into the profound themes of healing, trauma, and connection within the church. Drawing from their personal experiences and theological insights, they explore the concept of fullness as described in Ephesians, the importance of self-awareness in leadership, and the transformative role of compassion in the healing process.
The dialogue highlights the often-overlooked trauma faced by church leaders and their families, the wisdom that older generations bring, and the significance of listening to our bodies as a guide to healing. Through this journey, they emphasize the power of experiencing God as a secure and non-anxious presence, and how this experience equips us to become healers for others.
Whether you're a leader, a healer, or someone seeking wholeness, this conversation is a must-watch. Discover practical wisdom and transformative insights to help navigate your own journey toward healing and connection.
In this bonus conversation, Rob Wegner and Brian Johnson dive into the heart of what it means to navigate the challenges of cultivating networks of microchurches. Drawing on years of experience and plenty of missteps, they reflect on the key lessons captured in the *Four Mistakes Early Microchurch Practitioners Make* article.
The discussion offers a candid, behind-the-scenes look at their journey—sharing practical wisdom, personal anecdotes, and gentle warnings for those stepping into the work of planting microchurches.
Here are a few highlights:
- The Temptation to Go Too Fast: Why rushing to “flip the switch” on microchurches often leads to frustration and missed opportunities for deep disciple-making.
- Starting with Structures Instead of Stories: How building a website or organization before truly living out disciple-making can pull practitioners away from their hyper-local mission fields.
- Avoiding the Hero Complex: The importance of decentralizing leadership and making room for diverse voices from the very beginning.
- Returning to the Basics: A reminder that intimacy with Jesus, prayer, and repentance aren’t just starting points—they are the ongoing foundation of all movement.
The conversation is a compelling call to slow down, stay present, and root deeply in the work of the Spirit. Whether you’re an early practitioner or a seasoned leader, this conversation is a must-watch for anyone passionate about microchurch multiplication.
Catch the full video above and lean into these lessons as you continue your journey.