In this powerful and deeply personal conversation, Janina Fisher, PhD, sits down with longtime friend and colleague Benjamin Fry, founder of the internationally renowned Khiron Clinics in the UK. What unfolds is a moving reflection on Fry’s descent into despair, his search for healing, and how his lived experience ultimately gave birth to a trauma treatment model that has helped countless others find their way home to themselves.
Benjamin shares how, despite being a trained psychotherapist with a thriving private practice and media presence, he was blindsided by a severe breakdown that left him nonfunctional and terrified. After exhausting conventional options—therapy, medication, even hospitalization—he discovered somatic and neurobiologically-informed trauma therapy at a small clinic in Arizona. That four-month stay, which included EMDR and Somatic Experiencing, not only saved his life, but planted the seed for what would become Khiron House, now part of Khiron Clinics: a residential and outpatient program rooted in presence, relationship, and embodied care.
Janina and Benjamin explore the core philosophy behind Khiron’s success: healing through community. Clients don’t just receive therapy—they cook together, clean together, participate in groups, share rooms, and show up for each other. The environment is intentionally non-institutional and non-hierarchical, creating opportunities for relational repair and nervous system regulation in real time.
They also discuss the vital role of Janina’s TIST model (Trauma-Informed Stabilization Treatment), which Khiron adopted early on. Clients began using parts language organically, even outside of sessions—deepening their capacity for self-understanding and co-regulation.
The conversation dives into:
Why acknowledging trauma—not just managing symptoms—matters
The therapeutic power of safe community as co-regulator
How Khiron responds to self-harm and dysregulation with relationship, not punishment
Why everyday activities like cooking and shopping can be profoundly therapeutic
The emotional toll and extraordinary reward of working in residential trauma care
The unique challenges of treating complex trauma and dissociation (including DID) in a shared environment
How Khiron staff manage risk through containment, collaboration, and compassion
The importance of “parts contracting” and providing multiple therapeutic relationships
Why many clients find healing at Khiron after being failed by every other system
As Fry puts it, “At the core of every damaged person is an undamaged place that’s just trying to find a way out.” This episode is a moving tribute to what happens when clinical innovation meets lived experience—and when care is offered with courage, nuance, and community at its heart.
Benjamin Fry is a leading voice in the field of trauma and relationships. He is the founder of Khiron Clinics, one of the world’s foremost residential centres for the treatment of trauma-related mental health issues, and of Televagal, an innovative mental health technology platform that supports nervous system regulation in therapy.
An accredited psychotherapist, couples therapist, speaker, author, and entrepreneur, Benjamin has written four books, including The Invisible Lion: How to Tame your Nervous System and Heal your Trauma, which explores how trauma shapes our behaviours, bodies, and relationships and how we can heal.
Benjamin’s new book, Re-Pair: How to Fix Any Relationship, is a practical guide to transforming the patterns trauma creates in love, helping us reconnect through awareness, communication, and care.
He now speaks internationally and delivers workshops on trauma recovery and relationship repair. His work raises awareness of nervous system-based therapies and helps individuals and couples understand how trauma disrupts connection and how to restore it.
In this profoundly moving and deeply relevant episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher: Wisdom Between Colleagues—Insights for Us All, Janina Fisher, PhD, welcomes trauma therapist, TIST facilitator, and activist Jon Lee, LMFT (they/them), for an honest and layered conversation about working with trans and autistic clients—especially in a world where the threats they face are not just historical, but ongoing.
Together, Janina and Jon explore the emotional, clinical, and political weight of supporting clients whose suffering is shaped not just by past trauma, but by active, escalating systemic oppression. As anti-trans and anti-neurodivergent rhetoric and policy gain momentum, therapists face a dual responsibility: to be trauma-informed and to be anti-oppressive.
Jon speaks candidly about the emotional toll of holding space for trans clients when they too are grieving and fearful. They reflect on how therapy can (and can’t) address trauma rooted in systemic harm—and why the goal isn't always “feeling better,” but rather helping clients build internal and external support so they can keep moving forward in spite of everything.
This episode explores:
What it means to do therapy when clients are in real-time danger
The limitations of individual therapy in the face of systemic violence
Why “helping parts” in therapists must learn to tolerate discomfort
The role of mutual aid, community support, and decentralization
How TIST can support trans and autistic clients—when and how it fits
The cost of masking and how to create space for unmasking with care
Common misconceptions and stereotypes about autism in therapy
Why nuance is essential—and how exposure builds it
Accommodations that respect neurodivergent ways of processing and communicating
The overlap between trauma and neurodivergence—especially in how emotion is expressed
How clinicians can work toward decolonization and anti-oppressive frameworks in practice
Jon also shares their personal story of discovering they are autistic, and how this new understanding became a special interest that deepened their empathy and transformed their clinical lens. They challenge therapists to stop forcing neurodivergent and gender-expansive clients into neurotypical norms—and instead co-create spaces that honor difference, flexibility, and complexity.
Rather than asking, “How can I get my client to be more neurotypical?” Jon encourages a different question: “How can I adjust my therapeutic stance to meet the client where they are?”
Whether you’re a clinician, advocate, educator, or simply someone trying to show up better for the people around you, this episode is a compassionate call to hold nuance, embrace imperfection, and engage in collective resistance.
Some resources Jon would love to to share with people:
Crisis resources (including for queer, trans, gender-expansive people) that don't involve non-consensual reporting to authorities -- not for imminent life-threatening emergencies
http://jonleemft.com/resources
Free app including extensive mental health resources by and for trans people
"Modern Therapist's Survival Guide" Podcast episode about clinical considerations and engaging with this current political moment, for trans clients (with Artie Hartsell, MSW - director of organizing, ACLU of North Carolina)
A place to start learning about autism and more resources
"Unmasking Autism" by Devon Price, PhD - book about un-masking autism and intersections with gender identity and trauma manifestations, written by Devon Price, PhD (psychologist of trans experience)
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/688819/unmasking-autism-by-devon-price-phd/
In this episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher: Wisdom Between Colleagues—Insights for Us All, Janina Fisher, PhD, sits down with longtime friend, collaborator, and trauma therapist Lisa Ferentz, LCSW-C, DAPA, for a spirited, heartfelt, and refreshingly honest conversation on the art of psychotherapy. Together, they explore what it means to truly work in an integrative, client-centered way—where healing is not prescribed from a manual but discovered collaboratively, through relationship, creativity, and humility.
Lisa reflects on her decades of experience as a therapist, educator, and founder of the Ferentz Institute, where she trains clinicians across modalities. She shares the philosophy behind her best-selling book Letting Go of Self-Destructive Behaviors and its accompanying workbook, as well as her more recent publication Finding Your Ruby Slippers, a guided journey in accessing one’s inner wisdom. Drawing inspiration from The Wizard of Oz, Lisa offers a deeply compassionate, empowering lens for understanding trauma survivors—not as broken or resistant, but as protectively adaptive.
This episode touches on:
Why integration beats allegiance to any single model
The difference between being a “baker” vs. a “cook” in therapy
How parts work, somatics, and expressive modalities intersect organically
Why terms like “resistant” and “avoidant” do more harm than good
The “phobia of vulnerability” and what it really signals
How clinicians can be creative, sneaky, and humble in equal measure
Why modeling self-compassion matters more than teaching it
Janina and Lisa’s shared belief: the client is always the expert on the client
With warmth, laughter, and remarkable alignment, Janina and Lisa discuss how they’ve both spent decades advocating for a strengths-based, non-pathologizing, and emotionally nuanced approach to trauma treatment. They reflect on the early days of their friendship (which began at an empty book signing table!), and why both believe in weaving rather than worshipping therapeutic modalities.
Whether you’re a seasoned clinician, a student just beginning the journey, or a survivor in search of hope, this conversation is filled with insight, validation, and encouragement. As Lisa puts it, “Be a cook, not a baker”—therapy isn’t about perfect recipes. It’s about presence, attunement, and the courage to trust both your client and yourself.
Lisa is a recognized expert in the strengths-based, de-pathologized treatment of trauma and has been in private practice for over 40 years. She presents workshops and keynote addresses nationally and internationally, and is a clinical consultant to practitioners and mental health agencies in the United States, Canada, the UK, Italy, Ireland, Spain, and Israel. She has been an Adjunct Faculty member at several Universities, and is the Founder of “The Ferentz Institute,” now in its eighteenth year of providing continuing education to mental health professionals and graduating thousands of clinicians from her two Certificate Programs in Advanced Trauma Treatment. In 2009 she was voted the “Social Worker of Year” by the Maryland Society for Clinical Social Work. Lisa is the author of “Treating Self-Destructive Behaviors in Traumatized Clients: A Clinician’s Guide,” now in its second edition, “Letting Go of Self-Destructive Behaviors: A Workbook of Hope and Healing,” and “Finding Your Ruby Slippers: Transformative Life Lessons From the Therapist’s Couch.” Lisa also hosted a weekly radio talk show, writes blogs and articles for websites on trauma, attachment, self-destructive behaviors, and self-care, teaches on many webinars, and is a contributor to Psychologytoday.com.
You can follow Lisa’s work on her website, theferentzinstitute.com, YouTube, LinkedIn and Twitter.
In this engaging and heartfelt episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher: Wisdom Between Colleagues—Insights for Us All, Janina Fisher, PhD, is joined by psychiatrist, author, and trauma specialist Frank Anderson, MD for a wide-ranging conversation that is both clinically insightful and deeply personal.
With over three decades in the field of trauma and dissociation, Frank reflects on his evolution from a young Harvard-trained psychiatrist to a pioneering voice in Integrating Internal Family Systems (IFS), neuroscience, and psychopharmacology. Now, with multiple bestselling books, a production company, and a growing public platform, Frank is on a mission to bring trauma healing beyond the therapy office—to the wider world.
Together, Janina and Frank explore:
How to prescribe medication with respect for parts and without re-enacting power dynamics
Why trauma-informed psychopharmacology must be collaborative, consensual, and education-focused
The healing power of internal consensus—“all parts must agree” before a script is written
The myth that antidepressants “fix” depression—and how they actually work to widen the window of tolerance
Why therapy that only targets memory, but not blended parts, misses the heart of complex trauma
Frank’s concept of medications as unblending agents, helping clients step out of reliving and into relationship with their experience
Stories of early trauma treatment missteps—and the lessons we’ve learned from them
The shift from regressive parts mapping to strategic, systems-informed integration
Frank also shares highlights from his books:
To Be Loved — a memoir and upcoming feature film exploring truth, trauma, and transformation
Transcending Trauma — a guide to treating complex PTSD with IFS and neuroscience
IFS Skills Training Manual — a practical workbook that became a foundational tool for clinicians
The episode also includes a moving discussion about Frank’s production company, Trauma-Informed Media, and their work developing a docuseries adaptation of The Body Keeps the Score in collaboration with Bessel van der Kolk. Frank speaks passionately about reaching trauma survivors around the globe who may never access therapy—and about the urgent need for accessible, accurate information at scale.
Throughout, Janina and Frank reflect on their 30-year friendship, their complementary clinical philosophies, and their shared reputation for helping the clients others fear to touch. Their chemistry is warm, funny, and real—and their insights speak directly to clinicians navigating the complex intersections of parts, trauma, and pharmacology.
This episode is for:
Therapists curious about how medication fits in trauma treatment
Clinicians working with blended, suicidal, or highly dysregulated clients
Survivors looking to understand the why behind their healing journey
Anyone seeking hope, humility, and clarity in the chaos of complex trauma
As Frank says:
“I educate. You decide. And no medication happens until all parts are on board.”
Whether you’re a therapist, survivor, educator, or just trauma-curious, this conversation offers validation, vision, and a gentle challenge: How can we take what we know—and share it with the world?
Frank Anderson, MD, is a Harvard-trained psychiatrist and psychotherapist, specializing in trauma and dissociation. He is a lead trainer for the IFS Institute and has a long-standing affiliation with Bessel van der Kolk’s Trauma Center. He also serves as an advisor to the International Association of Trauma Professionals. His most recent books include To Be Loved: A Story of Truth, Trauma, and Transformation, a memoir about his personal journey, and Transcending Trauma: Healing Complex PTSD with Internal Family Systems.
https://www.frankandersonmd.com/
Program with Janina: https://www.frankandersonmd.com/trauma-beyond-the-story
In this powerful first episode of In Conversation with Janina Fisher: Wisdom Between Colleagues—Insights for Us All, Janina Fisher, PhD, is joined by longtime friend and colleague Ruth Cohn, MFT, for a deeply moving exploration of one of the most overlooked forms of trauma: neglect.
Ruth shares the origins of her groundbreaking work on neglect—what she calls “the trauma of nothing”—and invites listeners to rethink the invisible wounds carried by those who, on the surface, report no abuse or violence. Together, Janina and Ruth illuminate how missing experiences, in addition to overt events, shape our relationship templates, emotional regulation, and sense of self.
This episode touches on:
The origins of Ruth’s clinical curiosity about neglect
Why “nothing happened to me” can signal a profound trauma
Intergenerational transmission of disconnection and diffuse attention
Gendered vulnerability in attachment and emotional development
The survival strategy of caregiving in children with unmet needs
The importance of attuning to implicit memory and early relational absence
A compassionate reframing of “avoidant” clients and men in therapy
With warmth, clinical insight, and decades of experience between them, Ruth and Janina challenge the field to hold space for what has too often been dismissed: nothingness that shaped everything.
In Conversation with Janina Fisher features intimate, unscripted dialogues between Dr. Janina Fisher and leading voices in trauma therapy. Each episode explores the nuances of healing—from attachment wounds and somatics to IFS, memory reconsolidation, and anti-oppressive care. Thoughtful, relational, and deeply human, these conversations offer insight and inspiration for clinicians and curious minds alike.