Episode Summary
Product marketers are masters at positioning products, but we often struggle to apply those same skills to their own careers.
In this episode, product marketing career coach Yi Lin Pei shares her framework for self-positioning and career differentiation.
Yi Lin breaks down the concrete steps to shift from a tactical executor to a strategic growth driver, how to evolve your personal messaging to command executive presence, and why the most important communication skill might be asking "why" before saying "yes".
Key Takeaways
The Power of Asking "Why": When a manager gives you an urgent, out-of-left-field request, pause before reacting. Instead of saying yes or no, ask questions to understand the "why" behind the ask. This diffuses defensiveness, builds curiosity, and often reveals the true priority (or that the request isn't the right one).
Chapters
(00:37) Why Yi Lin chose career coaching after a 2020 layoff
(04:40) How leaders can make others comfortable coming to them for advice
(07:59) Applying PMM principles (positioning & differentiation) to your own career
(14:47) The 3-step process to shift from a tactical executor to a strategic growth driver
(19:06) How to balance day-to-day tactical work with long-term strategic efforts
(23:31) Defining the "T-shaped" product marketer
(26:39) The importance of domain experience (and when broad experience is an advantage)
(30:55) A simple exercise for PMMs to apply storytelling to their own accomplishments
(33:12) Tactics to evolve your personal messaging for leadership and executive presence
(40:22) The single most important communication skill for handling urgent requests
(44:22) Yi Lin's answer to "What is living all about?"
About Yi Lin
Yi Lin Pei is a product marketing consultant and career coach who helps product marketers grow in their careers and advises companies on building strong teams.
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yilinpei/
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Episode 14: Talya Heller, Owner of Down to a T (https://www.linkedin.com/in/talyahellermba18/) joins me (https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/) to break down how to weave competitive intelligence into messaging that actually differentiates.
We talk about why most companies ignore competition (and why that’s a huge mistake), how to find your real positioning levers, and why product differentiation alone won’t save you.
Talya also shares how to enable sales with “champion decks” and persona-specific one-pagers, why no one reads your 10-page messaging doc, and how to make messaging usable across the entire go-to-market team.
We even get into localization gone wrong, multi-persona buying committees, and her favorite way to uncover the best customer language.
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💡 During our conversation, you’ll learn:
Why 10-page messaging docs fail
How to adapt messaging for multiple personas
Talya’s go-to ways to mine customer conversations
How to create “champion decks” and persona one-pagers
A simple framework for using competitive intel to shape messaging
How to identify the real differentiators that make customers choose you
Why ignoring your competitors is the biggest messaging mistake you can make
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🎙️ In our conversation, we cover:
00:00 – Why ignoring competitors is the biggest messaging mistake
00:45 – Welcome to On Messaging with Talya Heller, the “Competitive Intel Queen”
02:00 – Talya’s career journey: engineer → PM → product marketer
06:43 – Why she pivoted from product management to product marketing
08:21 – Early impressions of marketers from the PM side
09:44 – The #1 messaging pitfall: sounding the same as competitors
14:33 – How much differentiation do you actually need?
17:45 – Differentiation beyond product: experience, support, and community
18:04 – Using competitive intelligence to shape positioning
22:55 – Why no one reads messaging docs (and what to do instead)
25:42 – Competition is emotional: avoiding bias in research
26:09 – Where to research competitors’ ICPs and customers
29:42 – How to position messaging across multiple personas
36:12 – Equipping your champion to sell internally (champions decks & one-pagers)
42:46 – Aligning sales and marketing on messaging and assets
47:53 – Simple tools & playbooks for enabling marketing teams
55:20 – Localization isn’t translation: global messaging mistakes
1:01:18 – One piece of messaging advice to implement tomorrow
1:02:36 – What living is all about
1:03:22 – How to support Talya + where to subscribe to her newsletter Spill the T
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🔦 Where to Find Talya (and more links):
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/talyahellermba18/
Down to a T Consulting: https://www.downtoat.co/
Spill the T Newsletter: https://www.downtoat.co/newsletter
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🔦 Where to Find Josh:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/
Newsletter: https://onmessaging.substack.com/
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3E1gduFoKQYHiLNmNLzeF4?si=c3e2bc4bd362490f
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/on-messaging/id1787098696
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Follow On Messaging:
Subscribe, like, and share if you’re a product marketer crafting messaging in B2B SaaS. New episodes drop every other week 💛
#productmessaging #b2bmarketing #productmarketing #podcast
Like this episode? Clicking Like and Subscribe go further than you know. Thank you 💛
Episode 13: Ryan Yackel, CMO at Databand.ai (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanyackel/) joins me (https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/) to share why product marketers make great CMOs and how narrative design can transform product launches.
We dig into how he uses storytelling to cut through complexity, why sales enablement is often more about creativity than slides, and how to keep demand gen aligned when the market shifts. Ryan also explains his approach to competitor research using AI tools like Gemini and NotebookLM, the “red box vs. green box” framework he uses with sales teams, and why he believes go-to-market execution beats having the “best” product every time.
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💡 During our conversation, you’ll learn:
Ways to use narrative design in product launches
A very compelling sales narratives
How to use AI for competitive research
How product marketing is different at a startup vs. enterprise
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🎙️ In our conversation, we cover:
00:00 – The “secret sauce” in messaging: telling a story buyers remember
00:35 – Intro to Ryan Yackel, CMO at Data Band
01:31 – Why product marketers make great CMOs
02:17 – From sales engineer to product marketing leader
03:43 – Why recruiters seek CMOs with product marketing backgrounds
06:02 – Product marketing as the headlights guiding demand gen
08:21 – Analogies that explain the role of product marketing
09:36 – Narrative design: framework for product launches
12:29 – Case study: Continuous Testing at Tricentis
13:26 – Case study: Machine identity management at KeyFactor
14:22 – Case study: Data observability at Data Band
15:30 – Bringing narrative design into IBM product launches
17:44 – Where narratives live: sales decks, messaging docs, and pitches
21:36 – Using reference points like Datadog to simplify complex products
22:07 – Building narratives for multi-product organizations
24:40 – Using AI (Gemini + NotebookLM) for competitive research
28:05 – Prompt engineering for category deep dives (Collier Rosin Kranz example)
30:12 – Framework mashups: April Dunford + corporate visions + AI research
32:27 – The “Red Box vs. Green Box” exercise for sales differentiation
36:35 – Teaching sales teams to sell stories, not features
38:17 – How messaging shifts from startup to enterprise companies
43:28 – Three tactics to win sales mindshare in large enterprises
46:52 – AMA sessions, newsletters, and internal podcasts for sales enablement
50:11 – Contrarian opinions: AI for messaging, PLG caution, GTM beats product
55:46 – Why go-to-market strategy beats having a “better” product
58:23 – Ryan’s #1 piece of messaging advice: define your secret sauce
1:00:56 – What life is all about: gratitude, faith, and perspective
1:03:38 – Where to find Ryan and his children’s book Pancakes and Mr. Bear
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🔦 Where to Find Ryan (and more links):
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryanyackel/
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🔦 Where to Find Josh:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/
Newsletter: https://onmessaging.substack.com/
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3E1gduFoKQYHiLNmNLzeF4?si=c3e2bc4bd362490f
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/on-messaging/id1787098696
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Follow On Messaging:
Subscribe, like, and share if you’re a product marketer crafting messaging in B2B SaaS. New episodes drop every other week 💛
Like this episode? Clicking Like and Subscribe go further than you know. Thank you 💛
Episode 12: Madeleine Work, Senior Product Marketing Manager at Chili Piper (https://www.linkedin.com/in/madeleinework/) joins me (https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/) to break down how to create messaging that reps actually use and customers remember.
We talk about defining clear platform messaging, getting internal buy-in without watering it down, and why launches are never really one-and-done. We also dive into sales feedback loops, creative copy that still converts, and how Madeleine uses tools like Gong, Wynter, and Mutiny to test what’s working.
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💡 During our conversation, you’ll learn:
How to A/B test website messaging
How to create continuous feedback loops
Getting internal buy-in on your messaging
Balancing creativity and clarity in messaging
Why product launches are on going and why you should repeat yourself
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🎙️ In our conversation, we cover:
00:00 – Teaser: How Madeleine crowdsourced and tested messaging across her company
00:29 – Intro to Madeleine and what you’ll learn in the episode
01:44 – From content to product marketing: how the transition happened
03:24 – What she loved (and didn’t love) about content marketing
06:01 – The challenge of getting 100% messaging buy-in
06:55 – The collaborative H1 test: value, competitor, and persona buckets
08:53 – Running messaging through Wynter and Mutiny
12:21 – The importance of above-the-fold copy and first impressions
14:08 – UI images in messaging: show, don’t tell
15:10 – How Chili Piper defined its platform messaging
15:59 – “Demand conversion”: the phrase they landed on
17:47 – Messaging in a competitive landscape (and naming your competitors)
19:32 – How they brainstormed the phrase “demand conversion”
21:02 – Creativity vs. clarity: writing how you talk
23:44 – “No more complaints about unfair lead distribution”: voice-of-customer in action
25:18 – Marketing to marketers: easier and harder
26:13 – Why marketers don’t click UTM links—but give amazing form responses
28:46 – How Madeleine continuously refines messaging over time
29:53 – Sales feedback loops and scathing voice notes
30:23 – Refresh cadence: product pages, competitor pages, then restart
31:59 – PDF collateral vs. web content: keeping everything updated
33:35 – Launches Madeleine’s proud of (and what she learned)
35:12 – Why no one noticed the chat launch—and how they relaunched it
36:55 – The importance of repetition in product marketing
38:33 – Using Gong to track if messaging is landing with reps
40:04 – What living is all about: being a little uncomfortable
41:28 – Where to find Madeleine and her “Madeleine Love” folder
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🔦 Where to Find Emily:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/madeleinework/
🔦 Where to Find Josh:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/
Newsletter: https://onmessaging.substack.com/
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3E1gduFoKQYHiLNmNLzeF4?si=c3e2bc4bd362490f
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/on-messaging/id1787098696
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Follow On Messaging:
Subscribe, like, and share if you’re a product marketer crafting messaging in B2B SaaS. New episodes drop every other week 💛
#productmessaging #b2bmarketing #productmarketing #podcast
Episode 11: Emily Pick, Lead Product Marketing Manager at Clari (https://www.linkedin.com/in/emilypick/) joins me (https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/) to dive into platform messaging, tailoring narratives for different buyer personas, and how to create a unified message across multiple products. We also unpack the balance of feature-level messaging, brand consistency, and customer words.
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💡 During our conversation, you’ll learn:
- Influencing the product roadmap as a product marketer
- Why most B2B messaging gets stuck in feature-function battles
- How to create messaging for buying committees without losing clarity
- How to transition from single-product messaging to platform-level narratives
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🎙️ In our conversation, we cover:
00:00 – Nobody’s buying a product—they’re buying a solution to their pain
00:29 – Intro to the episode and what you’ll learn from Emily
01:23 – Emily joins the show and shares her love for messaging
02:26 – Why Emily stepped away from business books and back into travel stories
03:17 – Backpacking, Rick Steves, and what travel taught Emily
06:26 – Travelers, chaos, and the joy of unpredictable experiences
07:20 – Introduction to platform vs. product messaging
07:56 – The history of Clari and their transition to a revenue platform
09:18 – Defining your category: what Clari wants to be known for
12:02 – Using positioning as the North Star for platform messaging
12:42 – Positioning vs. branding: how Emily differentiates the two
13:37 – Platform-first vs. product-level messaging strategy
14:08 – Moving from product features to solution-based messaging
16:01 – When product-specific messaging becomes important
16:54 – Mapping solutions to pains and personas before products
17:47 – Aligning product launches to the company narrative
18:36 – Crafting baseline and higher-order product messaging
19:37 – How Clari avoids building “off-strategy” features
19:48 – How product marketers can earn influence on the roadmap
21:29 – Bringing market research and analyst feedback to PMs
22:57 – Owning collateral and influencing alpha/beta feedback loops
23:12 – Building trust with PMs by being useful and aligned
24:02 – When Emily starts messaging and enablement for new features
24:32 – Using launch tiers and customer impact scores
25:56 – Examples: low impact vs. high impact, and how timing shifts
28:08 – Why Clari focuses on retention as much as acquisition
29:32 – The cost of new customers vs. caring for existing ones
30:30 – A call for PMMs to think beyond net-new revenue
31:00 – Tailoring messaging for the full buying committee
32:22 – Adoption depends on frontline users, not just executives
33:18 – Mapping personas to solutions and jobs-to-be-done
34:17 – Pre- and post-sale assets for each user type
36:45 – Collaborating with customer education to drive product adoption
38:39 – Clari’s position in a competitive space—and how to stay ahead
39:39 – Winning with relevance when features are at parity
40:57 – Creating preference without getting stuck in feature wars
42:49 – Signs you’re losing a deal: when the buyer uses your competitor’s language
44:34 – Selling against pain instead of relying on features
45:55 – How Emily and team enable sales with messaging that resonates
48:38 – Why customer words and Q&A insights power better messaging
49:41 – Tools Emily loves: Lottable and UserEvidence
50:49 – Letting Q&A fuel your copy and message refinement
52:04 – Emily’s #1 messaging tip: replace jargon with customer language
53:06 – What is living all about? Emily’s personal perspective
55:22 – Where to connect with Emily online
56:20 – Closing thanks and wrap-up
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🔦 Where to Find Emily:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emilypick/
🔦 Where to Find Josh:
LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/
Newsletter: https://onmessaging.substack.com/
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/on-messaging/id1787098696
On the show today, I have Gaspard Pastural, creator of PurpleOceans and a B2B SaaS Product Marketing Consultant.
During our conversation, you’ll learn:
Why go to market isn’t a one time event
How differentiate with relevance instead of features & pricing
Why B2B websites should be consumption first, then conversion
Sales and marketing messaging should be aligned but not identical
In our conversation, we cover:
00:00 – Why most B2B websites fail: lead gen vs. consumption
01:36 – Gaspard’s LinkedIn writing process and content philosophy
02:32 – The real goal of differentiation: be the most relevant choice
04:15 – What “relevance” means in practice: use cases over categories
06:06 – Why you’ll never out-feature the gorilla in your space
08:05 – The risk of trying to be everything for everyone
09:55 – How poor differentiation breaks messaging, positioning, and conversions
10:55 – Marketing your difference (not just saying you’re different)
11:56 – Sales vs. marketing messaging: aligned, not identical
13:00 – The analogy of explaining your job to everyone at once
14:07 – Three key differences: who, how, and intent
15:34 – Sales is adaptive; marketing is orchestrated
16:03 – Homepage strategy: guide consumption, don’t push conversion
17:29 – How to enable sales without dictating scripts
19:56 – PMMs as collaborators, not message enforcers
21:21 – Messaging as a structural alignment challenge
22:32 – Why your messaging must support the full buying committee
24:48 – Persona-based pages and website structure as messaging tools
28:08 – How PMMs can earn internal trust to shift company messaging
30:25 – The power of step-by-step change vs. the one-big-pitch trap
32:01 – Underrated GTM principle: reverse-engineer your launch
33:56 – How to do message testing without budget (and what *not* to do)
36:27 – Cheap, scrappy message testing strategies that work
38:14 – Why content is a long-term play, and why sales is faster for insights
41:17 – Final takeaway: reverse engineer everything to de-risk your work
42:53 – What living is all about: “Having no regrets and being proud”
45:36 – Where to find Gaspard online
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👉 Where to find Gaspard
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gaspardpastural/
Website: https://gaspardpastural.com/
Substack: https://gaspardpastural.substack.com/
👉 Where to find Josh
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/
Substack: https://onmessaging.substack.com/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUdKBktrLJWzNMDS45fh_Bg
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Referenced:
Gab Bujold: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gabriel-bujold/
Emma Stratton: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-stratton-punchy/
Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/
HubSpot: https://www.hubspot.com/
Folk CRM: https://www.folk.app/
Breakcold: https://www.breakcold.com/
On the show today, I have Collin Mayjack, Principle Product Marketing Manager at GoFundMe.
Before joining GoFundMe, Collin worked in product marketing at Oncue and Dataro and is the creator of Holy Shift.
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In our conversation, we cover:
00:00 – Intro: Welcome Collin Mayjack to the show
01:33 – From pastor to product marketer: Translating complexity into clarity
03:53 – Why side projects make you a better writer and messenger
06:17 – The origin of Collin’s 7 messaging principles
08:32 – #1: Clear is better than clever (and why most messaging fails here)
09:57 – #2: Differentiate or die—how to bring product strengths to the surface
10:55 – #3: Jargon is the enemy—cut through corporate fluff
11:25 – #4: You can’t say it all—focus on what matters most
12:24 – #5: Customers do care about features (with a twist)
14:21 – #6: Talk to your champion like a human
15:50 – #7: Good messaging flows from good positioning
18:22 – Bonus: The best messaging is clear and clever—but clarity wins
19:17 – How Collin tests messaging without fancy tools (and why he goes rogue)
20:44 – Partnering with PMs to pitch new features to real customers
21:43 – Using customer reactions to validate and refine messaging
22:37 – Real-world naming feedback: letting customers vote live
23:31 – Testing messaging in startups vs. larger companies
24:49 – Scrappy tactics: using social, email, and founders to test ideas
26:00 – How to choose the right customers for feedback
26:58 – The politics of advisory boards and enterprise obsession
28:11 – The PMM cheat code: bring the story, get invited to the table
29:04 – Balancing product messaging with SEO and brand voice
30:33 – Winning influence by starting with positioning, not copy
31:31 – Using Emma Stratton’s VBF framework to earn trust and traction
33:01 – The “mild sauce” effect: how messaging evolves through compromise
33:59 – The power of pen-to-paper: why the strategist shapes the outcome
35:45 – Influence, humility, and the politics of feedback
36:43 – Why being likable matters more than being right
38:10 – How Collin enables the sales team with clear, human messaging
39:21 – “Tuesdays with Enablement”: internal sessions that drive adoption
40:14 – How Collin builds 30-second sales stories that actually stick
41:43 – The James story: an example of sales messaging that works
43:07 – Talk tracks over taglines: why real talk wins
43:49 – Being active in Slack and jumping on sales calls to support deals
44:55 – Lightning round: One messaging tip you can implement tomorrow
46:21 – What is living all about? Collin’s personal reflection
47:00 – Where to find Collin and lift him up
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👉 Where to find Collin
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/collinmayjack/
Holy Shift Podcast: https://www.linkedin.com/company/holy-shift-pod/
👉 Where to find Josh
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/
Substack: https://onmessaging.substack.com/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUdKBktrLJWzNMDS45fh_Bg
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🎙️Referenced
Alex Eaton: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexeaton1/
Mark Huber: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markehuber/
Gab Bujold: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gabriel-bujold/
Zach Messler: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zachmessler/
Anthony Pierri: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthonypierri/
Emma Stratton: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-stratton-punchy/
On the show today, I have Alex Eaton, Director of Product Marketing at UserEvidence.
Before joining UserEvidence, Alex worked in product marketing at Help Scout and Lessonly.
What you’ll learn:
The 3 traits that separate great product marketers from good ones—and why “execution” is the most underrated
How Alex avoided a messaging disaster at UserEvidence—and the simple question that unlocked the right positioning
Why most messaging gets overlooked inside companies—and how Alex ensures people actually use it
A tactical breakdown of messaging docs that get read—why yours should be under two pages
The “gut tension” test Alex uses to know when messaging isn’t ready yet—and how to push past it
How to tailor messaging for multiple personas without breaking consistency
The role of customer evidence in brand messaging—and why UserEvidence leads with faces, not product shots
How to enable sales without being the “messaging cop”—Alex’s exact approach to feedback, coaching, and internal buy-in
What Alex learned from working with messaging consultants like Fletch—and when to bring in outside help
The mindset shift from “being right” to “driving outcomes”—why collaboration beats ownership in product marketing
And so much more.
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In our conversation, we cover:
00:00 – Intro & Welcome
00:51 – What Separates Good from Great Product Marketers
03:32 – How to Get Teams to Rally Behind You
06:19 – The Anxiety of Surface-Level Messaging
07:48 – Execution Over Strategy: Getting In the Weeds
09:23 – How Alex Nearly Blew the Messaging at UserEvidence
12:02 – The Phrase That Almost Made It: "Evidence-Based Content Platform"
13:57 – The Simpler, Stronger Message: Customer Evidence Platform
14:56 – Rolling Out the Messaging: Site, Deck, Personas, and More
15:43 – Connecting Problem and Solution: From Evidence Gap to Platform Fit
17:36 – Working With Fletch on Messaging: Why External Voices Matter
21:37 – Simplifying Messaging for Global Understanding
23:23 – Leading With Customer Stories in Messaging
25:51 – Becoming the Best at Customer Evidence—In Their Own Marketing
27:31 – Leading With Personas, Not Product
28:26 – Why Real Faces > Stock Photography
31:32 – The "Two-Page Messaging Doc" Philosophy
34:06 – How to Layer in Nuance After the Message Sticks
36:24 – Giving Feedback Without Micromanaging Sales
41:43 – Enabling Sales to Use the Message Consistently
44:53 – Tailoring Messaging for Personas Without Losing Focus
50:11 – Final Takeaway: The Power of Gut Tension
51:36 – What’s Living All About?
53:13 – Where to Connect With Alex
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👉 Where to find Alex
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexeaton1/
👉 Where to find Josh
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/
Substack: https://onmessaging.substack.com/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUdKBktrLJWzNMDS45fh_Bg
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🎙️ Referenced
Mark Huber: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markehuber/
Jillian Hoefer: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jillianmacnulty/
Evan Huck: https://www.linkedin.com/in/evanhuck/
Ray Rhodes: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ray-rhodes-a0672568/
Anthony Pierri: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthonypierri/
Robert Kaminski: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heyrobk/
David Ogilvy: https://www.amazon.com/Ogilvy-Advertising-David/dp/039472903X
Jason Oakley: https://www.linkedin.com/in/oakleyjason/
UserEvidence: https://www.linkedin.com/company/userevidence/
Lessonly: https://www.linkedin.com/company/lesson-ly/
Gong: https://www.linkedin.com/company/gong-io/
Help Scout: https://www.linkedin.com/company/help-scout/
On the show today, I have Shoshana Kordova, creator of Peel Product Marketing.
She truly defines what it means to be a curious product marketer and I think you’ll see what I mean throughout our conversation.
This episode is for product marketers who…
Are coming from a writing or editing background and how that experience is a huge plus
You’re looking to run customer interviews that go beyond surface level
How to create messaging for very technical products
How to understand the core needs of sales and why they are asking for enablement
Why it’s about understanding the story first, then the telling
And how to break into product marketing at a high tech start up
And so much more.
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In our conversation, we cover:
00:00 Introduction to Shoshana Kordova's Journey
03:31 Transitioning from Journalism to Product Marketing
06:13 The Importance of Research and Interviewing
08:51 Understanding Messaging through Customer Insights
11:32 The Role of Internal Stakeholders in Messaging
14:19 Exploring Customer Needs and ROI
17:03 Peeling the Onion: Digging Deeper in Conversations
19:44 Crafting Clear Messaging for High-Tech Products
24:57 Understanding Diverse Messaging Needs
29:10 The Power of Visual Storytelling
34:25 Crafting Compelling Stories in Marketing
38:13 Mentoring and Building Confidence in Product Marketing
44:59 Key Messaging Takeaways and What Living is All About
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Find the full transcript at: https://onmessaging.substack.com/p/how-to-get-the-most-from-every-customer
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Where to find Shoshana:
Website: https://app.assetmule.ai/vVFtTvys
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shoshana-kordova/
How To Get Insights From Customer Interviews (Playbook #7): https://jetpack.productivepmm.com/playbooks/playbook-7-customer-insights-and-messaging
Where to find Josh:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/
Substack: https://onmessaging.substack.com/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@OnMessaging
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Referenced:
Haaretz: https://www.haaretz.com/
Amanda Natividad: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amandanat/
Steven Dubner: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephen-dubner-2a066578/
Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/
The New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/
The Smithsonian: https://www.si.edu/
Marketo: https://business.adobe.com/products/marketo.html
Hubspot: https://www.hubspot.com/
Gong: https://www.gong.io/
Peel Product Marketing: https://app.assetmule.ai/vVFtTvys
On the show today, we have Pete McCarthy, chief marketing officer at Open Road Integrated Media.
Before joining Open Road, Pete led consumer insights at Ingram content group, co-founded a marketing SaaS, and led marketing at places like Penguin, and Random House.
Pete’s been in marketing at start-ups, mid sized companies, large orgs, and as an agency owner.
In our conversation he shares,
How messaging strategy varies across business sizes
The method behind the right book, to the right reader, at the right time
How customer relationships drive messaging
The CMO’s role on messaging
Why product marketers are positioned to be marketing executives
And so much more!
//
In our conversation, we cover:
00:00 Introduction
01:44 Pete's Marketing Background
13:17 The Evolution of Marketing Messaging
22:20 Positioning and Messaging Across Business Sizes
31:26 How Messaging was Created for Marketing Insights
36:52 Building Relationships in Corporate Marketing
41:19 The Role of a CMO in Messaging
49:49 How a CMO Thinks About Data and Marketing Measurement
01:00:01 Advice for Aspiring Marketing Executives
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Find the transcript at: https://open.substack.com/pub/onmessaging/p/an-accidental-marketers-approach?r=4rttlc&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=true
//
Where to find Pete:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petermccarthy1/
Where to find Josh:
Newsletter: https://onmessaging.substack.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@OnMessaging
//
Referenced:
Emma Stratton: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-stratton-punchy/
Jess Johns: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessjohns/
Open Road Integrated Media Inc: https://openroadintegratedmedia.com/
Ingram Content Group: https://www.ingramcontent.com/
Penguin Random House: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/
The New York Review of Books: https://www.nybooks.com/
Granta Publications: https://granta.com/
Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/
Google: https://www.google.com/
Yahoo: https://www.yahoo.com/
Marketing Insights
Apple: https://www.apple.com/
Microsoft: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/
Dell Technologies: https://www.dell.com/en-us
Pixar Animation Studios: https://www.pixar.com/
Costco Wholesale: https://www.costco.com/
Walmart: https://www.walmart.com/
Adobe: https://www.adobe.com/
Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/
On the show today, we have Jeff Chase Director of Brand and Product Marketing at Vitally.io.
Before joining Vitally, Jeff worked in product marketing and community at places like Plume Design, Verkada, Eero and Amazon.
Jeff’s been a two time founding product marketer at high growth B2B SaaS start ups.
In our conversation he shares,
1. His process to creating positioning and messaging at high growth start ups
2. The crucial role of customer conversations to develop messaging
3. Gaining Buy-In from leadership for Messaging and Positioning
4. How to create Effective Interactive Demos
And so much more!
//
Here's what's covered in our conversation:
00:00 Rethinking Product Marketing Titles
06:20 The Evolution of Product Marketing Roles
10:11 Creating Messaging and Positioning in Startups
16:05 The Role of Customer Conversations
19:11 Gaining Buy-In for Messaging and Positioning
29:07 The Importance of Sales and Customer Feedback
31:23 Brand and Product Messaging Alignment
35:45 Creating Effective Interactive Demos
43:11 Crafting Compelling Website Messaging
51:07 Measuring Messaging Effectiveness
58:05 Final Thoughts on Messaging and Life Lessons
//
Where to find Jeff:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffchase1/
//
Where to find Josh:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/
//
For more episodes On Messaging visit: https://onmessaging.substack.com/
On the show today, we have Michele Nieberding, the Director of Product Marketing at MetaRouter.
Before joining MetaRouter, Michele worked in product marketing Iterable, Qualtrics, and Cvent.
Michele’s been named a two time top 100 product marketing leader by product marketing alliance.
In our conversation she shares,
And so much more!
//
Here’s what’s covered in our conversation:
00:00 Introduction to Product Marketing and Messaging
01:25 The Importance of Messaging in Product Marketing
02:45 Michele’s Definition of Messaging
07:26 Category Creation vs. Messaging: A Hot Take
10:07 Understanding Customer Perspectives on Categories
13:10 Maintaining Messaging Consistency Across Teams
16:17 Leveraging AI Tools for Messaging and Research
19:18 Crafting Messaging for Technical Products
22:11 The Role of Storytelling in Technical Messaging
25:20 Engaging with Subject Matter Experts for Accurate Messaging
34:26 The Impact of Targeted Advertising
39:06 Navigating Multiple Personas in Messaging
46:50 Measuring Messaging Resonance
50:04 Understanding the Messaging Funnel
53:32 Key Messaging Takeaways
//
Where to find Michele:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michele-nieberding/
Reforge: https://www.reforge.com/profiles/michele-nieberding
//
Where to find Josh:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/
Newsletter: https://onmessaging.substack.com/
//
Referenced:
MetaRouter: https://metarouter.io
Iterable: https://www.iterable.com
Qualtrics: https://www.qualtrics.com
Cvent: https://www.cvent.com
Product Marketing Alliance: https://www.productmarketingalliance.com
Tealium: https://tealium.com
Speckit: https://spekit.com
Gong: https://www.gong.io
We're Not Marketers: https://werenotmarketers.com
Claude AI: https://www.anthropic.com/claude
Perplexity: https://www.perplexity.ai
ChatGPT: https://chat.openai.com
Google NotebookLM: https://www.notebooklm.google
Prompt Genie: https://www.promptgenie.com
Gartner: https://www.gartner.com
Forrester: https://www.forrester.com
Target: https://www.target.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com
WebMD: https://www.webmd.com
Riverside: https://www.riverside.fm
AruE9AtAjzfUcGcOnWK5
On the show today, we have Gab Bujold, messaging strategist and co-host of We’re Not Marketers Podcast. Gab’s helped 30+ B2B SaaS worldwide nail their product messaging. Before moving into being a messaging consultant. Gab was heading product marketing at BizDev Labs.
In our conversation Gab shares:
- How to listen to understand your customers
- Steps to running effective message testing
- How to create differentiation in your messaging
- What is message market fit and why it’s needed before product market fit
And so much more!
//
Actionable Takeaways:
- Adopt a long-term mindset when it comes to messaging, continuously refining based on feedback and market changes.
- Seek a deep understanding of your customers through direct conversations and listening to understand (not to fix).
- Prioritize message market fit as a crucial step before product market fit.
- When testing messages, don’t start with A/B testing. Ensure you have a clear ICP, a big enough testing volume, and you’re categorizing data correctly.
- Dare to be different by developing your unique POV. Don’t copy competitors.
- Ask prospects “in what category would you put this product?” to gauge how well your positioning is working.
- Leverage the word "without" in your messaging and copywriting to add definition and eliminate doubt.
//
Here's what's covered in our conversation:
00:00 Introduction
02:04 Are Product Marketers, Marketers?
11:07 Messaging is a Long-term Initiative
13:45 You Need to be Speaking with Customers
17:16 How to Speak with Customer
21:42 Listening to Understand: The Key to Effective Communication
22:34 Junk Food Advice: The Dangers of Surface-Level Messaging
24:35 Understanding Message Market Fit: A Crucial Step for Startups
30:00 Running Effective Message Testing: Steps and Strategies
36:49 Differentiation in Messaging: Standing Out in a Crowded Market
49:55 Aligning Messaging with Business and Product Strategy
55:24 Practical Messaging Advice: Context is Key
//
Where to find Gab:
Website: https://pressxtomarket.com/
Message Market Fit Scorecard: https://mmf-scorecard-lp.carrd.co/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gabriel-bujold/
Podcast: https://www.notmarketers.com/
//
Where to find Josh:
Substack: https://onmessaging.substack.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-chronister/
//
Referenced:
We're Not Marketers podcast: https://www.notmarketers.com/
Eric Holland: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eric-holland-not-a-marketer/
Zach Roberts: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zgroberts/
Product Marketing Alliance: https://www.productmarketingalliance.com/
Yi Lin Pei: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yilinpei/
BizDev Labs: https://www.bizdevlabs.com/
V2 Cloud: https://v2cloud.com/
Mitch Solway: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mitchsolway/
Lenny's podcast: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/podcast
Mindstone: https://www.mindstone.com/
Jonathan Hoffsuemmer: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathanhoffsuemmer/
Message Market Fit Book: https://www.fltrd.in/book
Robert Kaminski: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heyrobk/
Anthony Pierri: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthonypierri/
Fletch PMM: https://www.fletchpmm.com/
Zach Messler: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zachmessler/
April Dunford: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aprildunford/
Freckle.io: https://www.freckle.io/
Clay: https://www.clay.com/
PowerBI: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/power-platform/products/power-bi
Summary
In this episode of On Messaging, host Josh Chronister speaks with Zach Messler, a seasoned messaging consultant and educator, about the evolution of messaging in product marketing.
They discuss how messaging has changed over the years, the importance of understanding audience resonance, and the challenges of navigating biases in messaging.
Zach shares his insights on creating effective messaging strategies, emphasizing the need to focus on the audience and the essence of the product.
He also highlights the significance of testing messaging and being aware of personal biases in the marketing process.
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Takeaways
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During this episode, we chat about:
01:17 The Evolution of Messaging in Product Marketing
18:28 Understanding Audience Resonance and Feedback
23:04 Distinguishing Between Messaging and Copy
29:38 The Simplicity of Messaging
30:56 Understanding Message Clarity
32:06 Conciseness vs. Completeness in Messaging
35:36 Awareness of Bias in Messaging
38:57 The Key to Effective Product Marketing
48:46 Flipping the Message for Audience Engagement
50:07 Living with Purpose and Love
//
Where to find Zach:
Where to find Josh:
//
Get a 5-minute breakdown of the entire episode at https://onmessaging.substack.com/
//
Referenced:
Hey everyone, welcome to On Messaging.
I’m your host Josh Chronister.
Creating product messaging that actually resonates with buyers is one of the most difficult tasks of being a B2B product marketer.
You get it.
A lot goes into crafting quality messaging, but you’re still left wondering if it’s good enough to push ‘publish’, and share across the company.
This is the show for B2B product marketers to learn how to craft messaging that resonates emotionally with the buyer, builds credibility, differentiates from the competition and gets in front of your ideal customer.
Join me twice a month as I sit down with top messaging experts and in-house product marketers to dig into the stories, skills, and advice from our friends who are crafting messaging that resonates every day.
On Messaging launches February 4th, 2025.