In this episode of The In-Between, Evan sits down with Beth and Jeff McCord—bestselling authors and founders of Your Enneagram Coach—to unpack the powerful story behind one of the most influential faith-based coaching movements in the world.
After a devastating church transition left them questioning their purpose, the McCords found themselves in an unexpected season of rebuilding.
What began with financial uncertainty, part-time jobs, and late-night brainstorming sessions soon grew into a global platform serving millions.
They share openly about loss, marriage tension, risk, recovery, and the surprising ways God used their pain to prepare them for something new.
Takeaways :
👉 The church role that went sideways—and the sabbatical that forced a reset
👉 Beth’s entrepreneurial spark (platform skills, first Instagram posts, the scrappy first coach cohort)
👉 Jeff’s recovery & reframing season (counseling, ACOA, learning to learn-and-act)
👉 The catalytic moment: Ian Cron’s book hits and demand surges
👉 Why they launched Beth’s company (not under Jeff’s) to rewrite old patterns
👉 “Building while flying”: hiring help, customer support, and sustainable rhythms
👉 Redefining success beyond a church title—serving more people in new ways
👉 How their latest work (More Than Your Number) blends IFS with the Enneagram to navigate the inner world through transition
This Episode Is for You If…
📝 Show Notes: https://itstheinbetween.com/episode31-beth-jeff-mccord/
In this episode of The In-Between, Evan sits down with Tracey Gee—leadership coach, consultant, and author of The Magic of Knowing What You Want—to explore how desire, faith, and small experiments create aligned momentum after a disruptive transition.
Tracey shares how a missed promotion shattered her sense of identity—and how a simple 40-day practice (doing one thing each day she genuinely wanted) helped her reconnect with God, recover her agency, and begin imagining a new future.
Takeaways:
👉 Why desire is an honest doorway to clarity (you can’t fake what brings you alive)
👉 The “question parking lot”: permission, pragmatic, competency, and capital questions—and when to use them
👉 The Authentic Alignment Pathway (Calibration, Expansion, Experimentation, Integration)
👉 Why you don’t think your way to clarity—you live your way into it
👉 How to engage disappointment so it moves you closer to what you want
👉 How faith and desire cooperate (not compete) in discernment
This Episode Is for You If…
📝 Show Notes: https://itstheinbetween.com/episode30-tracey-gee/
In this episode of The In-Between, Evan sits down with Kristi Gaultiere—a licensed family therapist, co-founder of Soul Shepherding, and author of Deeply Loved—to explore how empathy plays a transformative role in emotional health, spiritual growth, and meaningful relationships.
With 30+ years of counseling and ministry experience, Kristi opens up about the emotional barriers leaders face during seasons of transition: self-judgment, shame, isolation, and the temptation to "be strong" by suppressing real emotions.
Drawing from her new book and personal experiences, Kristi shares how Jesus's empathy offers a healing presence for anyone navigating grief, uncertainty, or change.
This conversation is for anyone who’s felt emotionally disconnected, judged their own struggles, or longed for safe places of spiritual and emotional care.
Takeaways:👉 Why empathy is "oxygen for the soul"
👉 How childhood experiences shape our emotional responses in adulthood
👉 The difference between self-empathy and self-pity
👉 Why vulnerability is a gateway to intimacy, not weakness
👉 What Jesus's "in-between" years can teach us about waiting well
👉 How empathy from others can awaken hidden emotions and bring healing
👉 Why emotional awareness is a vital part of spiritual growth
👉 How empathy leads to transformation, not fragilization
👉 The "Four A's of Empathy" and how to practice them daily
This Episode Is for You If...
You're in a season of transition and feel emotionally disoriented
You’ve been told to "just be strong" or to ignore your emotions
You secretly wonder if your feelings are signs of spiritual failure
You desire deeper connection in relationships but feel stuck
You want to experience Jesus's empathy in a personal and transformative way
📝 Show Notes: https://itstheinbetween.com/episode29-kristi-gualtiere/
In this episode of The In-Between, Evan sits down with Michael Shahan—a licensed therapist, Enneagram specialist, and IFS practitioner—who helps people shift from self-judgment to self-leadership through deeper self-awareness and compassion.
Michael’s journey began unexpectedly when a couple he counseled discovered the Enneagram, transforming their marriage—and sparking Michael’s passion for using this powerful tool in his practice.
But it wasn’t until he faced his own fears, mistyped his own Enneagram number, and embraced the discomfort of self-discovery that his work took on new meaning.
Together, we explore why lasting change begins with curiosity instead of shame, how our most uncomfortable emotions hold the keys to freedom, and what it really means to flourish by accepting ourselves exactly as we are.
This conversation is for anyone wrestling with anxiety, secretly judging their own struggles, or feeling ready for deeper self-understanding—but unsure where to begin.
Takeaways:
👉 Why awareness alone can spark powerful transformation
👉 How to recognize when fear is quietly driving your decisions
👉 Why the parts of yourself you resist the most need compassion, not criticism
👉 What Michael means when he says, “The problem is the problem, not you”
👉 How Internal Family Systems (IFS) can help you understand your inner conflicts
👉 Why acceptance isn’t resignation—it’s empowerment
👉 The hidden connection between spirituality and emotional health
👉 How the Enneagram can reveal your blind spots and your gifts
👉 Why real flourishing begins with accepting your fears rather than escaping them
This Episode Is for You If…
You feel stuck repeating patterns you know aren’t serving you
You’ve experienced anxiety, self-doubt, or shame around your inner struggles
You’re secretly wondering if your coping strategies are doing more harm than good
You’re tired of fighting yourself and ready for deeper peace and clarity
You want a practical path to self-compassion—not just positive thinking
📝 Show Notes: https://itstheinbetween.com/episode28-michael-shahan/
In this episode of The In-Between, Evan sits down with Andrew Simila—executive coach, associate partner at Novus Global, and former pastor—who helps leaders live beyond their default future and into what he calls the generative future.
After 15 years in ministry, Andrew resigned from his pastoral role without a clear next step. What followed was a season of deep exploration, honest questions, and a slow but powerful reinvention.
Together, we explore what it means to live with curiosity, how to ask “What do I want?” without shame, and why ownership is often the doorway to transformation.
This is a conversation for anyone feeling stuck, frustrated, or dreaming of something different—but afraid to say it out loud.
Takeaways:
👉 Why every leader underestimates what they’re capable
👉 How to give yourself permission to want something new
👉 What Andrew means by “Growth happens on the hook, not off it”
👉 Why ministry is a function—not a title
👉 The difference between comfort and calling
👉 What the F.A.C.T. loop is—and how to know when you're in it
👉 Why vision without values is dangerous
👉 How to live with curiosity—in life, work, and relationship
👉 Why Andrew believes feedback is a gift, not a threat
This Episode Is for You If...
You’ve left (or are considering leaving) a leadership role
You’re questioning your next chapter—but scared of letting go
You’re carrying guilt around asking, “What do I want?”
📝 Show Notes: https://itstheinbetween.com/episode27-andrew-simila/
What if your best traits—the ones that made you successful—were also the ones keeping you stuck? And what if your next chapter isn’t about reinvention, but about recovering the parts of you you had to silence just to survive?
In this episode of The In-Between, Evan sits down with Samantha Mackay—visibility coach, former lawyer, and Enneagram guide—who helps solopreneurs and artistic humans birth the projects that won’t leave them alone.
After a health crisis forced her to leave law and confront the chronic stress her body could no longer carry, Samantha began a journey of healing—one that led her to a quieter kind of strength, and to creative work that felt true.
Together, they explore what it takes to trust your instincts again, how to tell when you’re coping vs. creating, and why expression isn’t just for artists—it’s for anyone who feels like they’ve outgrown their old life but don’t know what’s next.
Takeaways:
👉 When “strengths” like charm, productivity, or people-pleasing are actually survival strategies
👉 How childhood creative wounds shape adult self-expression
👉 The invisible cost of being “on” all the time
👉 Why nervous system safety is essential for reinvention
👉 How the Enneagram helps us reclaim essence—not just manage behavior
👉 What it means to return to old work with new boundaries
👉 How intuitive creativity—like painting or dance—helps us hear what’s been buried
📝 Show Notes: https://itstheinbetween.com/episode26-samantha-mackay/
In this episode of The In-Between, Evan sits down with Joe Freudenberg—former youth pastor turned entrepreneur, coach, and founder of Pickleball CourtPro.
Joe’s journey is one many vocational leaders will resonate with: a quiet realization that the life he’d built no longer aligned with the mission he felt called to live.
Joe shares what it was like to leave vocational ministry without a clear next step, the slow and often disorienting season that followed, and how unlikely mentors and manual labor helped him rediscover provision, purpose, and possibility.
From flipping eBay items in a basement to building pickleball courts and coaching other dads, Joe’s story is a powerful testament to how God uses the in-between.
We talk about the emotional toll of transition, what it means to rebuild not just a career but a sense of calling, and how Joe’s family is now living out a vision he first shared in his twenties—this time, funded by his own business.
He reflects on what kept him going when he wanted to quit, how finding “the right person” made all the difference, and why flourishing, for him, is measured by the fruit he sees in his home.
Joe also shares how he’s now helping other dads leave ministry, start businesses, and pursue a deeper alignment between calling, capacity, and conviction.
Takeaways:
👉 Why Joe left ministry without bitterness—but with deep confusion
👉 What wandering seasons can teach us if we give them space
👉 How assembling IV pump parts created mental room for transformation
👉 The story behind Joe’s first court build—and the conversation that made it possible
👉 Why ministry leaders often underestimate their transferable soft skills
👉 The importance of asking for help—and how one person can shift everything
👉 What Joe believes flourishing looks like now as a husband, father, and business owner
👉 Why creating space for your family’s vision might matter more than ever
This episode is for anyone who’s left ministry, is questioning their next move, or is in the messy middle between identity and income. If you’ve ever wondered, “What do I do with all these skills I can’t put on a resume?”—this one’s for you.
📝 Show Notes at: https://itstheinbetween.com/episode25-joe-freudenberg/
In this episode of The In-Between, Evan sits down with Jason DeMeo—artist, designer, keynote speaker, and co-founder of We Are Curio. Jason’s vocational journey has taken him from corporate call centers to church leadership, from vintage Etsy shops to full-time abstract art.
Through it all, a common thread emerges: the courage to listen to what’s stirring underneath—and the willingness to follow it.Jason shares how the arc of his life has followed five-to-seven-year creative seasons, what it feels like when the old ways stop fitting, and how art became a way to trust emergence rather than force outcomes.
He reflects on what it means to navigate change through intuition, spiritual listening, and play—and why side projects matter more than we think.We talk about the sacred mess of the creative process, why permission is often what we’re waiting for (even if we don’t say it), and how artistic intelligence is something every person carries—not just trained artists or creatives.He also introduces the AWE framework (Adopt the mindset, Work the practice, Exhibit the art) and explains how memory fragments, reverse abstraction, and gold leaf became not just materials, but metaphors for meaning.Takeaways: 👉 How push and pull can help us discern when it’s time to shift—or stay 👉 Why transitions often begin with discomfort before clarity 👉 The story of how Jason moved from consulting to art without a formal background 👉 What “reverse abstraction” and “memory fragments” teach us about healing and integration 👉 Why every artist needs a sacred space and regular practice 👉 The difference between being an artist for others and creating for yourself 👉 Why Jason believes artistry is inherent—and how to begin recovering it 👉 A commissioning to see yourself as art and live from that truth
This episode is for anyone wondering what to do with that side project that won’t leave you alone, anyone standing at the edge of “what’s next,” or anyone who needs to hear that creating from your truest self isn’t just allowed—it’s essential.If you liked this video, please give it a thumbs up 👍 , subscribe, and share it with your friends.📝 Show Notes: https://itstheinbetween.com/episode24-jason-demeo/
In this episode of The In-Between, Evan sits down with Kirk Romberg—former pastor, certified coach, and co-founder of Bridge and Rhino, where he equips leaders toward healthier, values-based leadership.
Kirk shares his story of moving across states to be near family, stepping away from decades of full-time ministry, and starting a house painting business while quietly listening for what God had next. Along the way, he discovered the "right thing at the wrong time" often becomes the "right time" through discernment, confirmation, and the willingness to let go.
We talk about how to navigate transition when clarity isn’t immediate, how identity can become tangled with calling, and why values must outlast any job title. Kirk also shares why spiritual flourishing looks less like striving, and more like presence, healthy rhythms, and deepening relationships.
In this episode, we talk about:
📍 Why it's easy to over-identify with roles—and what anchors us when those change
📍 The quiet difference between reacting to discomfort and discerning with peace
📍 How clarity committees (inspired by Parker Palmer) can help us notice God's invitation
📍 Why living your values may be the most faithful measure of "success"
📍 What happens when the vision outruns the values—and how to realign
📍 Why liminal space can be a training ground, not a punishment
📍 What to do when God whispers not yet
📍 How healthy neighbor relationships became a surprising marker of flourishing
Takeaways:
👉 "The idea of coaching was the right thing. It just wasn't the right time. I knew it would come off the shelf one day."
👉 "We can make a step outside of God's plan, but we can't step out of His grace."
👉 "If you use only one intelligence center through transition, the other two haven't transitioned."
👉 "The stated values and the real values aren’t always the same. The more we close the gap, the more authentic we become."
👉 "Flourishing means enjoying my wife, showing up for our grandkids, laughing with our neighbors—and not needing productivity to define me."
👉 "God isn't 'I was' or 'I will be.' He is 'I AM.' And that means flourishing begins now."
This episode is for anyone who:
📝 Show Notes: https://itstheinbetween.com/episode23-kirk-romberg/
In this episode of The In-Between, Evan sits down with Suzanne Stabile—Enneagram teacher, spiritual director, and author of The Road Back to You and The Journey Toward Wholeness. Often referred to as the "Enneagram Godmother," Suzanne has spent decades helping people see themselves more clearly and live more compassionately—especially through seasons of deep change.
Suzanne shares how her own journey—from divorce and remarriage, to being blackballed from the Catholic Church, to co-creating Life in the Trinity Ministry—shaped the way she teaches, loves, and lets go. She reflects on what it means to be “called into ministry,” how that calling can evolve, and why we need to stop pretending that every spiritual or vocational assignment is forever.
We talk about how relationships shift during transitions—why some friendships are seasonal, how the “present moment” stance can unintentionally give the wrong impression, and why letting go doesn’t have to mean it didn’t matter.
She also speaks to the Enneagram as more than a personality tool—it’s a way to understand how we relate to others, especially when we’re disoriented, over-functioning, or defaulting to old survival strategies.
Takeaways:
👉 Why the Golden Rule is a myth—and how the Enneagram teaches us to treat people the way they want to be treated.
👉 Suzanne’s deeply personal take on calling, grief, and how “doing the next right thing” became a lifeline.
👉 How orientation to time (past, present, or future) shapes our expectations in relationships—and sometimes leaves us hurt.
👉 “Every expectation is a resentment waiting to happen”—why friendships in transition feel so tender.
👉 The danger of over-promising in ministry seasons, and how unspoken expectations lead to relational confusion.
👉 Why everyone needs three companions: a spiritual director, a therapist, and a contemplative practice.
👉 “We weren’t made to flourish in someone else’s way.” Suzanne shares what flourishing looks like now—through aging, writing, and grandparenting.
This episode is for anyone who’s navigating the loss of role-based identity, wondering how to discern what's theirs to carry forward, and longing for connection that’s rooted in presence, not performance.
📝 Show Notes: https://itstheinbetween.com/episode22-suzanne-stabile/
In this episode of The In-Between, Evan sits down with Cory Carlson—executive coach, speaker, and author of Win at Home First and Rise and Go.
Cory spent decades climbing the corporate ladder, leading high-performing teams, and achieving outward success. But underneath the promotions and titles, something was breaking: his health, his relationships, and his sense of purpose.
Cory shares the story of what it took to step off the hamster wheel of hustle, face the fear of transition, and reimagine a life where success is measured not just by work performance—but by the quality of his closest relationships. We talk about the warning signs he missed, how hiring an executive coach changed everything, and the slow, intentional work of rebuilding priorities, identity, and courage from the inside out.
If you've ever felt like you were succeeding at work but struggling at home—or wondered if it’s possible to lead without losing yourself—this conversation will meet you right where you are.
Takeaways:
👉 “You have one family—but 18 bosses.” Cory shares the wake-up call that reshaped his view of priorities.
👉 It's not about time management—it’s about choice management.
👉 Success at work means nothing if it comes at the cost of your soul at home.
👉 Fear keeps more people stuck than failure ever will.
👉 How "doing it afraid" can be the gateway to growth, courage, and new beginnings.
👉 Why solitude, reflection, and intentional planning aren’t luxuries—they're survival skills for sustainable leadership.
👉 Cory’s journey from corporate president to coach—and why identity is a battle we have to fight (and refight) at every stage of life
📝 Show Notes: https://itstheinbetween.com/episode21-cory-carlson/
In this episode of The In-Between, Evan sits down with Chris Morris—author, speaker, and advocate for mental health and chronic illness in faith communities.
Chris is the author of Resilient and Redeemed, and his life’s work is rooted in deeply personal experiences: walking with his daughter through epilepsy and autism, facing his own long battle with depression and suicidal ideation, and learning to hold suffering and faith together in the same breath.
Chris shares the story of what it’s been like to live with mental illness as a person of faith—and how the simple formula many churches teach ("problem + Jesus = no problem") broke down for him.
We talk about the painful fallout of poor pastoring, the lifeline of one friend's birthday invitation, and the healing power of curiosity, gentleness, and asking better questions—like “What if God is present and I just can’t perceive Him right now?”
If you’ve ever wrestled with God’s silence, felt judged for your pain, or wondered whether your diagnosis disqualifies you from spiritual maturity—this conversation is full of honesty, grit, and unexpected grace.
Takeaways:
👉 “Problem + Jesus = Chris still has a problem.”
👉 How catastrophizing, self-judgment, and shame distort our perception of God—and how curiosity can open a new path.
👉 “Man up and pray more”—why these five words wrecked Chris’s faith (and what rebuilt it).
👉 The three “what if” questions that changed everything—and gave him back his agency.
👉 Why having a mental illness is not a sign of spiritual immaturity.
👉 How transparency and risk became the doorway to real, healing community.
👉 Why flourishing, for Chris, now means: knowing I am loved by God, having the courage to sit in that love, and being content in that being enough.
📝 Show Notes: https://itstheinbetween.com/episode20-chris-morris/
In this episode, I sit down with Hunter Mobley—Enneagram teacher, lawyer, former pastor, and author of Letting Go, Finding You—to talk about what it really means to listen to your life, especially when it no longer fits the plan.
Hunter’s story doesn’t follow a straight line. He started in law, pastored for six years, and now finds himself in a vocational mosaic—teaching Enneagram workshops, guiding contemplative cohorts, and practicing estate law in a way that feels more like family counseling than courtroom battles. Along the way, he’s learned that transition isn’t something to push through—it’s something to pay attention to.
We talk about the power of the Enneagram—not just as a personality tool, but as a companion for soul work—and why every number holds both a curse and a hidden gift. Hunter unpacks why slowing down can feel terrifying, what’s actually waiting for us on the other side of ego, and how discernment can become a sacred practice—not just a productivity hack.
If you’re in a season where you’re wondering what’s next, unsure how to move forward, or afraid to stop moving altogether—this conversation will meet you there.
Takeaways:
👉 “Everything contains its opposite.” Why your personality might be hiding the truest thing about you.
👉 Hunter shares how pride (his passion as a Type 2) masked his need for help—and how humility has become a lifeline.
👉 “I’m not trying to be an Enneagram evangelist. I’m an evangelist for tools.”
👉 We talk about why some spiritual growth efforts actually build ego—and how contemplative practice can undo what performance reinforces.
👉 “Flourishing, for me, means showing up in ways that are truest to who I am—regardless of how it’s received.”
👉 We explore stances, spiritual intelligence centers, and how each number is invited into a different kind of growth.
👉 What if the stuck season is actually the teacher?
👉 Hunter introduces us to the Quaker practice of a “Clearness Committee”—and how it can transform our discernment.
This episode is for anyone who’s tired of five-step spirituality, sensing that they’re being invited into deeper soul work, or looking for language to name what’s shifting in their identity and vocation.
📝 Show Notes: https://itstheinbetween.com/episode19-hunter-mobley/
In this episode, Evan sits down with Kevin Rains—entrepreneur, former pastor, and the author of Profits and Purpose. After scaling a multi-location business and selling it to private equity, Kevin found himself drawn back into a different kind of leadership: coaching entrepreneurs, building a retreat center with his son, and walking with others through seasons of transition.
Kevin opens up about the deeply personal and often painful journey of moving out of pastoral ministry—not because he wanted to, but because something in him was shifting. He talks candidly about the spiritual identity crisis that followed, the depression and doubt he faced, and the surprising grace he discovered while running an auto body business.
We talk about why the soft skills pastors often overlook—like empathy, presence, and communication—are actually powerful marketplace assets, and how risk and faith are more connected than we think. Kevin shares the story of his pilgrimage through Celtic monastic sites that helped him reframe what it means to live a holy life in the business world.
If you’re a leader in the midst of vocational change, wondering if you’re abandoning your calling—or just trying to figure out how to make sense of who you are without the title—Kevin’s story offers clarity, encouragement, and hope.
Takeaways:
👉 “I was trying my best at something I believed God called me to—and getting a very mediocre result.”
👉 Kevin shares how success in business unexpectedly sparked a crisis of identity and faith.
👉 “I could tell my congregation their work mattered—but I didn’t believe it for myself.”
👉 Hospitality, generosity, and justice are now the core values Kevin’s building his life—and family business—around.
👉 We talk about the emotional cost of leaving ministry and the deep work required to make peace with the past.
👉 Risk and faith are two sides of the same coin—“If there’s no leap, it’s not really faith.”
👉 Kevin shares what it means to lead from curiosity, not certainty—and how asking better questions helps people move forward.
👉 “Legacy for me isn’t money or recognition—it’s values that outlast me.”
This episode is for anyone who’s felt the tension between calling and change, who’s grieving what used to be, or who’s learning how to trust that holy, meaningful work can show up outside of the church walls.
📝 Show Notes: https://itstheinbetween.com/episode18-kevin-rains/
In this episode, I sit down with Bob Gardner—a former pastor who’s walked through deep disruption, vocational loss, and the exciting work of reimagining what’s next.
Bob shares what it was like to be let go from a church job just before Christmas—without warning and over a theological issue he didn’t see coming. It left him disoriented and heartbroken. But it also sparked an honest reckoning with identity, calling, and what it really means to serve when you're no longer on staff.
We talk about the pressure pastors face to protect their families while navigating church politics, the grief of being misunderstood, and how ministry systems sometimes elevate structure over care. But we also explore the grace Bob's found outside the church—in a new job, new community, and a deeper sense of calling that's not tied to a paycheck.
If you’ve ever felt like you were suddenly “out,” questioned your place in the church, or wrestled with how to keep going when the system feels broken—Bob’s story will meet you there.
Takeaways:
👉 “I was in, and then I was out—just like that.” Bob shares what it felt like to lose a ministry job overnight.
👉 His wife said it best: “I don’t know if my spirit can take that again.”
👉 We talk about why leaving church staff doesn’t mean you’re leaving your calling.
👉 “Sometimes I’m shown more grace in the workplace than I ever was in church.”
👉 Bob’s learning how to serve again—but now in ways that actually cost him something.
👉 We dig into the difference between character and corporate culture—and why some churches confuse the two.
👉 You’re not disqualified. You’re not forgotten. You’re just in transition.
This episode is for anyone who’s sat across the boardroom table alone, been told they’re no longer “called,” or is trying to untangle who they are now that the title is gone.
🎧 Show Notes: https://itstheinbetween.com/episode17-bob-gardner/
In this episode, Evan sits down with Betsy Wills and Alex Ellison—co-authors of Your Hidden Genius and advocates for a radically hopeful approach to work and calling. Together, they unpack why so many people feel stuck in their careers, how we end up defaulting into the wrong roles, and what we can do to discover the innate talents we were wired with from the start.
Drawing from decades of research, including a century-old, science-backed aptitude assessment, Betsy and Alex make the case that you already have what you need—you just haven’t been exposed to it yet.
Whether you’re pivoting in your career, trying to figure out your next step, or simply longing to feel more fulfilled in your work, this conversation is a must-listen.
Takeaways:
👉 Aptitudes don’t change—so when you discover them, they become a compass for every career decision going forward.
👉 Feeling stuck may be a sign that you're not using your dominant hand, metaphorically speaking.
👉 The real problem? An exposure gap—most of us don't know what careers are even out there, or what we’re truly wired fo
👉 Your aptitudes are not your interests
👉 You might not need a new job—just a new environment that better matches your innate gifts.
👉 You don’t have to figure this out alone—their book offers the full assessment that used to cost $750, now made accessible to everyone.
We discount our strengths because they come easily to us. But that ease? That’s where your genius lives. —Alex Ellison
🎧 Show Notes: https://itstheinbetween.com/episode16-besty-wills-alex-ellison/
In this episode, Evan sits down with songwriter, poet, and thinker Andy Squyres—a voice that has been deeply resonant for those walking through doubt, grief, and the complexities of faith. Known for his honest lyrics and raw expressions of devotion, Andy unpacks the tension between belief and struggle, why he’s more hopeful than ever, and how he thinks the Church is undergoing a necessary and painful transformation.
From writing songs that hold space for suffering to exploring the limits of institutional faith, Andy speaks candidly about grief, meaning, and what it means to follow Jesus in a world addicted to certainty. If you’ve ever wrestled with your place in the Church, questioned your inherited theology, or wondered if you’re allowed to bring your whole self to God—this conversation will meet you in that space.
Takeaways:
👉 Art should mirror the absurdity of life—Andy writes songs not to explain away pain, but to help people tell the truth about it.
👉 You can be honest with God—your questions, grief, and contradictions don’t scare Him.
👉 Deconstruction isn’t always destruction—sometimes it’s just making space for a deeper, more sustainable faith.
👉 Certainty is not the goal—Andy speaks about letting go of belief systems to actually experience God, not just ideas about Him.
👉 Flourishing isn’t fame or control—it’s knowing your neighbors, getting your hands in the soil, and living a life you can sustain.
👉 The Church isn’t dying—it’s being remade—and artists, poets, and prophets are helping us see what’s next.
I’m not trying to affirm what people already believe—I’m trying to get them to see that God is much more than they’re thinking about Him. —Andy Squyres
This episode is for anyone wrestling with doubt, stuck in-between frameworks, or looking for faith that feels both holy and human.
🎧 Show Notes: https://itstheinbetween.com/episode15-andy-squyres/
In this conversation, Joseph Lewin shares his journey of redefining calling, navigating unexpected career shifts, and finding purpose outside of traditional ministry.
Growing up, he believed that full-time ministry was the only way to serve God. But as doors to traditional ministry remained closed, he found himself working manual labor jobs, launching businesses, leading marketing strategies, and even serving as the executive director of a nonprofit in Kenya.
Joe discusses the tension of wanting to serve in ministry while needing to provide for his family, how he overcame the identity crisis that often comes with career change, and how he found meaning in unexpected places. He also shares practical strategies for career pivots, skill development, and the power of relationships in opening doors.
If you’re in a season of transition, wrestling with your calling, or unsure how to move forward, this episode will give you clarity and actionable steps to navigate what’s next.
Takeaways:
👉 Your calling isn’t defined by a job title. Ministry isn’t just a paycheck—it’s about obedience and serving where you are.
👉 Career transitions happen in two ways: the slow, planned shifts and the sudden, unexpected ones. Learning to navigate both is essential.
👉 Identity crises often follow career changes. It’s normal to question your worth, but your value isn’t tied to your job.
👉 Slowing down is powerful—but not always an option. When possible, take time to reflect. But in survival mode, focus on making the next right decision.
👉 Your existing skills are more transferable than you think. Communication, leadership, event planning, and problem-solving are highly valuable in the marketplace.
👉 Relationships matter more than resumes. Job applications are fine, but real opportunities come through networking and adding value to others first.
👉 To pivot well, start by serving. Offer your skills for free to test new career paths, build confidence, and create opportunities.
👉 Your values should guide your career decisions. Joe prioritizes his faith, family, and autonomy—these values shape every opportunity he pursues.
👉 Sometimes, the best thing you can do is take action. If you don’t have clarity, start by building skills, strengthening relationships, and taking small steps forward.
This episode is for anyone facing career uncertainty, questioning their calling, or wondering how to create a meaningful next chapter.
🎧 Show Notes: https://itstheinbetween.com/episode14-joe-lewin/
In this conversation, Kathryn Maack, founder of Dwellings and author of Whole: The Life-Changing Power of Relating to God with All of Yourself, shares her journey of rethinking church, discipleship, and community.
Kathryn’s story challenges traditional ministry models and offers a compelling vision for how believers can gather around God’s presence in a decentralized, organic way.
She opens up about the tension she felt while serving in a megachurch—questioning whether traditional methods were truly forming disciples—and how that tension led her to step into something new.
Kathryn also shares the faith-filled leap she took, trusting God’s provision when she left her full-time ministry job to pursue what eventually became Dwellings.
If you’ve ever felt a disconnect between how church has been done and how you long to experience it, this episode will give you encouragement, practical wisdom, and a fresh perspective on what the future of church could look like.
Takeaways:
👉 Your holy discontent could be God’s invitation. If you feel restless about the way church is done, it may be the Spirit stirring something new.
👉 God provides when we step out in faith. Kathryn shares how she took a leap without financial security—only for God to miraculously meet her needs.
👉 Church can look different—and still be biblical. Gathering in homes, prioritizing participation, and focusing on the presence of Jesus reflect the early church’s model.
👉 People are hungry for spiritual depth, not just information. Access to sermons is everywhere, but true discipleship happens in community and practice.
👉 From spectators to participants. The church’s future depends on shifting from passive listening to active engagement.
👉 Bivocational ministry is a growing reality. Many leaders are finding ways to serve without relying on a church salary—and it’s working.
👉 Let go of control and trust God. Releasing leadership to others can feel risky, but movement and multiplication happen when people are empowered.
This episode is for anyone questioning how church is done, feeling called to something new, or longing for deeper community and discipleship.
📝 Show Notes: https://itstheinbetween.com/episode13-kathryn-maack/
In this conversation, Conner Smith shares his journey of transitioning from pastoral ministry to the marketplace, navigating the identity shifts, uncertainties, and opportunities that come with such a move. He discusses the challenges of leaving a leadership role, the process of translating ministry skills into a new career, and the importance of keeping relationships intact even when stepping away from a familiar environment.Conner and Evan explore the evolving nature of calling, how to embrace change without fear, and why our identity is more than a job title. Conner shares his insights on grieving what was while embracing new possibilities, redefining success beyond vocational ministry, and discovering purpose in everyday life.This conversation is for anyone wrestling with a career transition, questioning their sense of calling, or wondering how to move forward when the next step isn’t entirely clear.Takeaways👉 Transitioning from ministry to the marketplace comes with identity shifts and unexpected challenges.👉 Leaving well requires wisdom, emotional intelligence, and a focus on relationships.👉 Ministry skills like communication, leadership, and relationship-building are highly transferable.👉 Calling isn’t about a job title—it’s about showing up for your family, faith, and community.👉 Grief is a natural part of career transitions, and it’s okay to sit with it.👉 It’s possible to hold on to faith while navigating major life changes.👉 Success isn’t defined by position or salary but by faithfulness in the small moments.👉 Self-awareness is crucial for finding a new path that aligns with your strengths.👉 Sometimes, the best next step is just moving forward, even without total clarity.👉 Calling evolves over time, and there is freedom in exploring new opportunities.👉 Flourishing is about being present, connected, and faithful in whatever season you’re in.
🎧 Show Notes: https://itstheinbetween.com/episode12-conner-smith/