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The Practice of the Practice Podcast | Where Modern Psychology Meets the Business of Therapy
Joe Sanok | Private Practice Consultant, TEDx Speaker & Author of Thursday is the New Friday
300 episodes
2 days ago
Therapists aren’t taught business skills. So how do you market your services, automate systems, or grow from a solo practice to a group; all without burning out?

What if you want to integrate AI, mindfulness, sports psychology, or psychedelic therapy into your work—where do you even start?

The Practice of the Practice Podcast helps therapists, counselors, coaches, and wellness professionals navigate the business side of mental health while staying at the forefront of clinical innovation.

Hosted by Joe Sanok, consultant and author of Thursday is the New Friday, each episode dives into the questions practitioners actually face—marketing fundamentals, finances, ethical and legal challenges, scaling sustainably—and features the leading voices in all things therapy, both business, and academic.
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Entrepreneurship
Business,
Marketing,
Health & Fitness,
Mental Health
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All content for The Practice of the Practice Podcast | Where Modern Psychology Meets the Business of Therapy is the property of Joe Sanok | Private Practice Consultant, TEDx Speaker & Author of Thursday is the New Friday and is served directly from their servers with no modification, redirects, or rehosting. The podcast is not affiliated with or endorsed by Podjoint in any way.
Therapists aren’t taught business skills. So how do you market your services, automate systems, or grow from a solo practice to a group; all without burning out?

What if you want to integrate AI, mindfulness, sports psychology, or psychedelic therapy into your work—where do you even start?

The Practice of the Practice Podcast helps therapists, counselors, coaches, and wellness professionals navigate the business side of mental health while staying at the forefront of clinical innovation.

Hosted by Joe Sanok, consultant and author of Thursday is the New Friday, each episode dives into the questions practitioners actually face—marketing fundamentals, finances, ethical and legal challenges, scaling sustainably—and features the leading voices in all things therapy, both business, and academic.
Show more...
Entrepreneurship
Business,
Marketing,
Health & Fitness,
Mental Health
Episodes (20/300)
The Practice of the Practice Podcast | Where Modern Psychology Meets the Business of Therapy
Money as a Therapy Issue with Wendy Pitts Reeves, LCSW | POP 1298
How does the way you handle money shape the work you do with every client? What would your practice look like if you treated money as a core part of the healing process rather than an uncomfortable afterthought? Why should your practice be profit-centered and people-forward?
In this podcast episode, Joe Sanok speaks about money as a therapy issue with Wendy Pitts Reeves, LCSW. 
Podcast Sponsor: Headway







I want to thank Headway for sponsoring this episode. If you run a group practice, you know that accepting insurance can be overwhelming. Between credentialing, billing, and payroll, the admin side can easily take over your week. Headway was built to help you handle this — and they’re the only platform designed specifically for in-network group practices.
Whether you’re growing your team or running an established practice, Headway makes the business side easier with faster credentialing, higher per-session rates, and biweekly payments your team can count on.
They work with therapy, psychiatric, and hybrid groups — and there are no subscription fees. Just the support you need to run your practice with ease.
Run your best group practice with Headway — trusted by thousands of group practice leaders to simplify insurance admin and reach more people through in-network care.
Curious how Headway can work for you? 
Meet Wendy Pitts Reeves







Wendy Pitts Reeves, LCSW is a psychotherapist-turned-entrepreneur who helps healing professionals build aligned, abundant practices. Through her podcast Ideal Practice and her studio work, she supports therapists in finding fulfilment, increasing their impact and earning with integrity.
Visit Ideal Practice to find out more. 
FREEBIE: Get your $50 discount to Wendy’s mini-course: “Mind Over Money”  – Use the promo code JOE to receive your discount
In This Podcast

* Wendy’s Seven Pillars of an Ideal Practice
* Navigating money in private practice 
* How money impacts therapy work 
* Wendy’s advice to private practitioners 


Wendy’s Seven Pillars of an Ideal Practice
The whole reason I have this is because it’s easy to think that there’s one thing that’s going to make your private practice work, and that’s not true. There really is a whole foundation that you have to have in place for a successful business. (Wendy Pitts Reeves) 

1 – Purpose: This is not why you want to help the people that you serve, it is the why behind why you want to run a business at all. 
2 – People: Once you know why you want to own and run a business, then you can figure out who you want to serve and why you want to serve them. 

Once you know why you want to own a business, then I want to know who you want to serve and why you want to serve them. If you’ve got this nailed down, you will know who your ideal client is inside and out. You’ll know them better than they know themselves, you’ll know what drives them, you’ll know what worries them, and you’ll know what serves them. This is realy important. (Wendy Pitts Reeves)

3 – Product: How do you serve these people? It needs to be an irresistible offer.
4 – Process: How do you run this business that you have set up in a way that is easy for your clients, your clinicians, and yourself. 
5 – Payment: How do you get paid,
Show more...
2 days ago
35 minutes

The Practice of the Practice Podcast | Where Modern Psychology Meets the Business of Therapy
Real Skills for Real Life: DBT, AI, and the Future of Emotional Support with Shireen L. Rizvi, PhD and Jesse Finkelstein, PsyD | POP 1297
Can emotional regulation be taught like reading or math? What happens when technology starts offering comfort instead of therapy? How can modalities like DBT evolve without losing their integrity in a world increasingly driven by AI?
In this podcast episode, Joe Sanok discusses Real Skills for Real Life: DBT, AI, and the Future of Emotional Support with Shireen L. Rizvi, PhD., and Jesse Finkelstein, PsyD.
Podcast Sponsor: Gusto

Something always comes up when you’re running a private practice. Well, Gusto’s payroll and HR services can make it a little easier.
Gusto was designed for you, the small business owner. They take the pain out of running a business. Automatically calculating paychecks, filing payroll taxes, setting up open enrollment—Gusto does it all.
Want more? Time tracking, health insurance, 401(k), onboarding, commuter benefits, offer letters, access to HRexperts—you get the idea. With Gusto, you can focus on the joy of running your business.
It’s super easy to set up and get started. And if you’re moving from another provider, Gusto can transfer all your data for you.
It’s no surprise 99% of businesses said the value they get for Gusto is worth the price. Here’s the best part: because you’re a listener, you get three months totally free. All you have to do is Click here!
Meet Shireen L. Rizvi, PhD












Dr Shireen Rizvi, PhD, ABPP is a licensed clinical psychologist, board-certified in both dialectical behaviour therapy (DBT) and cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT). She earned her BA from Wesleyan University and her MS/PhD in Clinical Psychology from the University of Washington, where she trained with Marsha Linehan, the founder of DBT. With over 25 years of experience, her work spans research, training and clinical services in evidence-based treatments for complex mental-health needs.
 





Find out more on Shireen’s website.

 
 
Meet Jesse Finkelstein, PsyD












Dr. Jesse Finkelstein, PsyD is a clinical psychologist, educator, and the co-founder and Chief Product Officer of TheraHive. He specializes in Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) and integrates design, illustration, and animation to make behavioral-health skills more accessible. He earned his PsyD from Rutgers University and serves as an Instructor at Columbia University Irving Medical Center. Jesse is also the creator of The Game of Real Life and co-author of Real Skills for Real Life.Visit Therahive and connect with Jesse on Instagram.






In This Podcast

* The evolution of DBT beyond borderline personality disorder
* The intersection between AI, emotional support, and ethical therapy
* Everyday skills for emotional regulation and resilience
* Balancing acceptance and change in a polarized world
* Advice for private practitioners 

The evolution of DBT beyond borderline personality disorder
Dr. Rizvi highlights how DBT has evolved far beyond its original use for severe mental h...
Show more...
5 days ago
35 minutes 51 seconds

The Practice of the Practice Podcast | Where Modern Psychology Meets the Business of Therapy
GPBC25 Series: Mitigating Risk and Employment Law with John David Gardiner | POP 1296
Who counsels the counselor? Are you building systems to prevent risk, or patching problems after they appear? When was the last time you checked whether your employment practices could stand up to legal scrutiny?
In this episode, John Gardner breaks down the best legal steps to take when building and growing a private practice, from hiring the right team to staying compliant with employment laws. 
Podcast Sponsor: Headway







I want to thank Headway for sponsoring this episode. If you run a group practice, you know that accepting insurance can be overwhelming. Between credentialing, billing, and payroll, the admin side can easily take over your week. Headway was built to help you handle this — and they’re the only platform designed specifically for in-network group practices.
Whether you’re growing your team or running an established practice, Headway makes the business side easier with faster credentialing, higher per-session rates, and biweekly payments your team can count on.
They work with therapy, psychiatric, and hybrid groups — and there are no subscription fees. Just the support you need to run your practice with ease.
Run your best group practice with Headway — trusted by thousands of group practice leaders to simplify insurance admin and reach more people through in-network care.
Curious how Headway can work for you? 
Meet John David Gardiner












John David Gardiner is a member at Bodman PLC and chairs the firm’s Liquor Law Team. With over a decade of experience in business and employment law, he represents employers in various matters, including white-collar crime investigations and general civil litigation. John has a background as a former assistant district attorney and has served in various leadership roles in community organizations.
 
Find out more at Bodman Law and connect with John on LinkedIn.






In This Podcast

* Why practice owners must know what they don’t know
* How proactive systems prevent costly legal missteps
* Why crisis-based consulting is expensive and inefficient
* How preparation and compliance prevent liability

Why practice owners must know what they don’t know
Gardiner opens with a personal story about taking on a drywalling project himself, only to realize mid-way that he had no idea what he was doing. 
He uses this to illustrate a broader point: self-reliance is valuable, but overconfidence in unfamiliar territory can be dangerous. 
Business owners must identify their blind spots early, especially when it comes to employment and compliance.

This was not a good use of my time. Maybe it’s good for future stories … Not that I’m above or better than it – you know, if you need drywalling, let me know! – but it wasn’t a good opportunity cost for me … It’s important that I know what I don’t know – and I accept that. (John David Gardiner)

Recognizing your limits isn’t a weakness. They are forms of professional wisdom that protect both your business and your license.
How proactive systems prevent costly legal missteps
While it’s essential to work with lawyers, Gardiner cautions against letting outside experts run your business. Your attorney should advise you,
Show more...
6 days ago
21 minutes 31 seconds

The Practice of the Practice Podcast | Where Modern Psychology Meets the Business of Therapy
How Dakarai Larriett’s Wrongful Arrest Sparked a Push for Police Accountability | POP 1295
How would accountability look if power were guided by integrity instead of control? What if storytelling could serve as both documentation and a path toward reform? What pushes you to take action towards justice rather than stepping back or staying down?
In this podcast episode, Joe Sanok discusses with Dakarai Larriett about his story of wrongful arrest, which has ignited a campaign for justice and accountability in American Law Enforcement. 
Podcast Sponsor: A Finer Framework
If you’re growing a group practice, you know how much time and energy it takes to keep your clinicians licensed in multiple states — and keep up with renewals and CE requirements. That’s where A Finer Framework comes in, your trusted partner for mental health licensure. 
A Finer Framework partners with mental health group practice owners to handle multi-state licensing, license renewals, and tracking continuing education — so you and your team can stay focused on serving clients, not buried in paperwork.
Whether you’re onboarding new hires, expanding your telehealth reach, or planning to grow into new states, they make the entire licensing process smooth and stress-free.
Join the hundreds of clinicians that already trust A Finer Framework to save time and headaches. Visit afinerframework.org/joesanok today to learn more.
Meet Dakarai Larriett












Dakarai Larriett, a proud native of Alabama and son of a U.S. Army veteran, is a successful entrepreneur and dedicated community volunteer who has turned his energy toward public service. After graduating Magna Cum Laude in business and economics and earning his MBA at New York University’s Stern School of Business, he built a thriving business while also serving on numerous nonprofit boards. A nationally publicised wrongful arrest in 2024 spurred his commitment to justice and inspired him to seek elected office, so that everyday Americans can count on leaders who put service over politics.Visit Dakarai’s website, and connect on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn.


 




In This Podcast

* What happened that night 
* Misused masculinity, authority, and power 
* Taking action rather than taking the loss 
* Writing the memoir 
* Dakarai’s advice to private practitioners 

What happened that night 
Dakarai was driving through southwest Michigan, where he was apprehended by the state police, subjected to seven sobriety tests in the cold, and lied that he was inebriated when he was in fact sober. 
He was then arrested and taken in handcuffs to a local hospital, where he was tested again, and the tests were negative. Despite the negative tests, he was still taken to jail overnight, and then, out of the blue, accused of trafficking drugs by way of ingestion.
Again, despite his protests of false accusation and lies, he was forced to use the restroom in front of police officers. 
To this day, Dakarai is still fighting for justice for the trauma and humiliation he suffered without reason that night.  

At the end of the day, no one has advocated for me,
Show more...
1 week ago
31 minutes 17 seconds

The Practice of the Practice Podcast | Where Modern Psychology Meets the Business of Therapy
Building Great Lakes Online Counseling Week 1 with Joe Sanok | POP 1294
If you were to start a practice this month, what are the first essential things you would need to do? Is it possible to work in a successful practice for only two hours a week? How far can you go in discovering the scope of the work before working with experts?
In this podcast episode, Joe Sanok starts building Great Lakes Online Counseling | Week 1. 
Podcast Sponsor: Headway







I want to thank Headway for sponsoring this episode. If you run a group practice, you know that accepting insurance can be overwhelming. Between credentialing, billing, and payroll, the admin side can easily take over your week. Headway was built to help you handle this — and they’re the only platform designed specifically for in-network group practices.
Whether you’re growing your team or running an established practice, Headway makes the business side easier with faster credentialing, higher per-session rates, and biweekly payments your team can count on.
They work with therapy, psychiatric, and hybrid groups — and there are no subscription fees. Just the support you need to run your practice with ease.
Run your best group practice with Headway — trusted by thousands of group practice leaders to simplify insurance admin and reach more people through in-network care.
Curious how Headway can work for you? 
In This Podcast

* Foundational admin to set first 
* Brainstorming with AI
* Accountability going forward

Foundational admin to set first 
One of the first aspects of the legal paperwork to start with when it comes to launching a new private practice is: 

Where to file the LLC
Building out the website. Joe’s going to work with one of our current partners, Session Sites, to create the Great Lakes Online Counseling website. 
Start with the end in mind in terms of selling one day 


I’m going to talk to Dan King, he was one of our speakers at the GPBC in 2025, and he’s probably going to be back in 2026, he’s a guy who helps different investors buy practices, and so [I want to] think with that lens … I’m going to be reaching out to him to see if he’d want to do an interview where we talk through what [investors] look for when they buy practices so that I can build something that has the potential to be bought in a couple of years. (Joe Sanok)


Lay out the practice’s billing systems. Joe’s considering working with Headway, another great and long-term affiliate of POP, to start on the possibility of taking insurance. 

Brainstorming with AI 
One of the main ways Joe works with AI is to tell it how to think, and then to ask it what assumptions it has about how it is thinking and responding to the context you give it. 
These assumptions help Joe (and you) get a grasp of the core pieces. However, always check your information with a human expert as well. 

So I said [to ChatGPT], “If you were to take all the data and say which states I should focus on to make the most money and only work two hours a week, I’ll be hiring clinicians, so that’s only admin, where should I focus? (Joe Sanok)

ChatGPT gives its options but still recommends that Joe researches and enquires further before making a decision. 
Accountability going forward

Being that this is like a side-project for me that I’m building publicly, I want to make sure that I follow my own rules, and if I can’t,
Show more...
1 week ago
21 minutes 53 seconds

The Practice of the Practice Podcast | Where Modern Psychology Meets the Business of Therapy
GPBC25 Series: Building a Thriving Practice in a Saturated Market with Jill Williams | POP 1293
How might your practice evolve if you built it from who you are, not just what you offer? Why are clarity and depth the keys to standing out in a saturated market? If you were on the other side of your own leadership, would you want to work for you?
In this podcast episode snippet from the GPBC25 series, Jill Williams discusses how to build a thriving practice in a saturated market. 
Podcast Sponsor: Headway







I want to thank Headway for sponsoring this episode. If you run a group practice, you know that accepting insurance can be overwhelming. Between credentialing, billing, and payroll, the admin side can easily take over your week. Headway was built to help you handle this — and they’re the only platform designed specifically for in-network group practices.
Whether you’re growing your team or running an established practice, Headway makes the business side easier with faster credentialing, higher per-session rates, and biweekly payments your team can count on.
They work with therapy, psychiatric, and hybrid groups — and there are no subscription fees. Just the support you need to run your practice with ease.
Run your best group practice with Headway — trusted by thousands of group practice leaders to simplify insurance admin and reach more people through in-network care.
Curious how Headway can work for you? 
Meet Jill Williams







Jill Williams, LCSW owns Mental Health Masterminds, an online education and consultation business designed to support clinicians in feeling competent and confident with their day-to-day work. whether they are fresh out of grad school or delightfully seasoned pros. Jill also owns Flourish Counseling and Wellness, a group practice offering treatment to children and adults in Asheville, NC. Her primary goal at Flourish is to provide the sustainable, long-term employment that she wishes was available when she became a therapist 15 years ago.
Visit Mental Health Masterminds and Flourish Counseling and Wellness.
In This Podcast

* Be clear on who you are
* Observe what is around you
* What is likely to come next?
* “Would you want to work for you?”
* Jill’s 3 rules for flourishing

Be clear on who you are
Look inward. Jill recommends spending some time to consider: 

Who you are
What you believe in 
What you value 
How you show up uniquely 

When you want to stand out in a saturated, crowded market, you need to drill down deep into the real, authentic components that make you who you are. 
These are what are going to help you separate yourself from the crowd and draw your best-fit, ideal clients to you. 
Observe what is around you 

What’s going on in the community? What’s unique to your town? What does your potential client population look like? (Jill Williams)

Once you have gone inward and brought forth the core aspects of yourself and your business, observe what is around you. Consider the population of your town, state, or client base in general. 
Who are the people that you are going to serve? What do they struggle with? How are you uniquely positioned to help them? 
Take note of the surroundings and factor these insights into the work that you do. 
Show more...
1 week ago
29 minutes 17 seconds

The Practice of the Practice Podcast | Where Modern Psychology Meets the Business of Therapy
When to Start a Group Practice? With Joe Sanok | POP 1292
Are you always coming back to the idea of launching your own private practice? Which essential markers do you need to focus on to know when to take that next step? Once you start to get full, how do you keep the clients coming? 
In this podcast episode, Joe Sanok answers the question: “When should I start a group practice?”
Podcast Sponsor: A Finer Framework
If you’re growing a group practice, you know how much time and energy it takes to keep your clinicians licensed in multiple states — and keep up with renewals and CE requirements.
That’s where A Finer Framework comes in, your trusted partner for mental health licensure. 
A Finer Framework partners with mental health group practice owners to handle multi-state licensing, license renewals, and tracking continuing education — so you and your team can stay focused on serving clients, not buried in paperwork.
Whether you’re onboarding new hires, expanding your telehealth reach, or planning to grow into new states, they make the entire licensing process smooth and stress-free.
Join the hundreds of clinicians that already trust A Finer Framework to save time and headaches. Visit afinerframework.org/joesanok today to learn more.
In This Podcast

* The 3 common categories of people starting practices
* What to do when you’re getting full 
* Pinpoint the scalability 

The 3 common categories of people starting practices
Joe discusses the 3 common “buckets” of people who are the most common new practice owners, or who would be good practice owners if they decided to start: 
1 – Solo practitioners who notice a need or niche in their environment and are building up a waitlist.
2 – Folks who feel a calling to be a practice owner and run a business like an entrepreneur and leader.

They’re more comfortable probably with risk, they’re probably thinking through some of their numbers, but for them, they just know: “I want a group practice.” (Joe Sanok) 

3 – People who have some economic security, who can run their practice comfortably without having to rely on a second job or a source of income. 
What to do when you’re getting full
There will come a time, whether you are a small-time solo practitioner or a multi-group practice owner, when your client roster fills up. What do you do then?

Raise your rates. You can keep your current cohort at the usual rate, but raise the rates for new clients and see how it goes for a few weeks. 
When you are 60% full with clients, start looking for clinicians to hire into your practice, because if you wait much longer, you’ll get too many people coming in the door without enough capacity to convert them. 


Usually, when you’re 60% full, that’s when you want to start looking for people to hire, because we know if you post a job right now, it’s going to take a few weeks to get resumes … Then it’s going to take a few weeks to do the interviews … So by that point you’re going to be 80/ 90% full. (Joe Sanok)


Rebrand your practice to stand on its own rather than using your name, especially if you want to grow your business a bit more. 


We want to look at your website, we want to look at how [we are] branding … We want to move from that “I” or “me” to the “we”. (Joe Sanok)

Pinpoint the scalability 
Once you land on what works, keep going. 
Find the niches, find your audience, strike up a dialogue with them, and incorporate their needs into your offerings. 
If you need some extra guidance along the way, feel free to Show more...
1 week ago
18 minutes 48 seconds

The Practice of the Practice Podcast | Where Modern Psychology Meets the Business of Therapy
How Joe Thinks Through Private Practice, Business, and Life with Wendy Pitts Reeves | POP 1291
What if your practice wasn’t an identity to protect, but a tool designed to serve your life? How much stronger could your business become if you built alongside people whose strengths fill your gaps? Who might you become if your worth rested not in productivity, but instead in being fully, authentically yourself?
In this reverse podcast episode, Wendy Pitts interviews Joe Sanok on how he thinks through private practice, business, and life. 
Podcast Sponsor: JotPsych







If you’re in private practice, you already know—it’s not just about seeing clients. It’s notes, treatment plans, onboarding, scheduling, insurance, forms… the list goes on.
JotPsych was built to take the busywork off your plate. It’s the first AI-powered EHR made specifically for therapists. It can draft your progress notes automatically, send reminders, handle scheduling, deliver clinical screeners, and help with treatment planning. It’s a smart system that learns how you work— and then works for you.
JotPsych has already supported over a million therapy visits and is helping thousands of clinicians save hours every week.
You can try it free—and get 50% off your first two months with code JOE at JotPsych.com/Joe.
Meet Wendy Pitts Reeves







Wendy Pitts Reeves, LCSW is a psychotherapist-turned-entrepreneur who helps healing professionals build aligned, abundant practices. Through her podcast Ideal Practice and her studio work, she supports therapists in finding fulfilment, increasing their impact and earning with integrity.
Visit Ideal Practice to find out more.
In This Podcast

* Thoughts on private practice 
* Notes on business 
* Life within both and beyond 

Thoughts on private practice 

I think one of the things for practice owners to think through is, “Why am I starting a practice? Why do I continue a practice? What does that do to serve me?” (Joe Sanok)

For many practice owners, their business is like their baby – a perspective Joe personally dislikes. 
He explains that there may come a time when you need to sell your practice, let it go, or shut it down, which is something you’d never do to your child. 

To me, that’s dysfunctional. We need to say, “[My practice] is a tool that is serving my family. This is a tool that’s serving my future. This is a tool that’s serving my community – how do we have this be the sharpest tool for what I want?” (Joe Sanok) 

Notes on business 
Balance your strengths with the strengths of others. 
When you are building a business, one of the best things that you can do is hire people whose expertise and nature run parallel with yours, who keep you grounded and supported as the CEO, and can offer the business the skills that you don’t have. 
Secondly, Joe mentions the necessity of keeping tabs on your client’s journey. What do they need? When do they need it? Don’t rush ahead of your audience and offer them services or products that they are not asking for. 

Following your customer journey, to me, is very important. Whether it’s your clients or, for us, your listeners, there were times that I tried to do things faster than what I should’ve. (Joe Sanok)

Thirdly, once you do find something that kicks off and goes on well, you need to learn how to keep it going and to maintain that momentum. 
Talk with your audience. Engage with them by letting them sign up to talk to you about their needs and the projects that you are brainstorming to make sure that they match up. 
Show more...
1 week ago
1 hour 3 minutes 27 seconds

The Practice of the Practice Podcast | Where Modern Psychology Meets the Business of Therapy
Freedom for Your Practice: from Infancy to Maturity | GP 300

What if maturity in business wasn’t about doing more, but finally doing less, with intention? How much freedom could you unlock if you built systems that supported you instead of relying on you? What would your practice look like if it truly served your life instead of consuming it?
In this first podcast episode in the Freedom for your Practice series, Brandon Shurn speaks about how to take your private practice from infancy to maturity | Part 1. 



Podcast Sponsor: Headway







I want to thank Headway for sponsoring this episode. If you run a group practice, you know that accepting insurance can be overwhelming. Between credentialing, billing, and payroll, the admin side can easily take over your week.
Headway was built to help you handle this — and they’re the only platform designed specifically for in-network group practices. Whether you’re growing your team or running an established practice, Headway makes the business side easier with faster credentialing, higher per-session rates, and biweekly payments your team can count on. They work with therapy, psychiatric, and hybrid groups — and there are no subscription fees. Just the support you need to run your practice with ease.
Run your best group practice with Headway — trusted by thousands of group practice leaders to simplify insurance admin and reach more people through in-network care.
Curious how Headway can work for you? 
In This Podcast




*
What does it mean to have a mature business?

*
What keeps your practice stuck in infancy?

*
Building a vision-driven business


What does it mean to have a mature business? 
When you think about business maturity, it’s not too dissimilar from any human being’s maturity phases throughout life. 
There’s an infancy phase, an adolescence stage, and then a shift into young adulthood, and later into maturity in adulthood. 

Now, unlike what it takes for humans to develop, a business doesn’t have to take … 25 years to reach full maturation, but all businesses do go through the three phases: infancy, adolescence, and ultimately, maturity. (Brandon Shurn)

Maturity for your business does not mean that you are no longer contributing to the business. Instead, a mature business means that it can exist without you propping up every aspect of it. You can be less involved in its day-to-day activities. 
What keeps your practice stuck in infancy?
The trap of a poor revenue is what can keep your practice stuck in infancy, and halt growth and development. 

What I’m saying is that we get stuck on this hamster wheel of thinking that more clients equals more freedom, and actually, more clients does not equal more freedom. (Brandon Shurn)

More clients – without good structure within your business – does not mean more freedom. In fact, it means much more work solely on your shoulders, and therefore more bottleneck pressure for your business. 

Scaling without systems … can support that revenue growth trap because everything is living inside of your head as the practice owner. When you do not have a way to delegate, to outsource … then everything is dependent on you as the practice owner. (Brandon Shurn)

If you don’t have any systems in place with your business, you are seriously risking burnout.
Do you find yourself always working in the business, and therefore with little to no time to work on the business? That’s a sure-sign that you need to switch up how you get things done and incorporate more ...
Show more...
1 week ago
24 minutes 5 seconds

The Practice of the Practice Podcast | Where Modern Psychology Meets the Business of Therapy
GPBC25 Series: Structure with Soul – Building Systems that Support People with Jennifer Froemel | POP 1290
What is the secret ingredient to building better systems in your business? What if your systems didn’t just organize your practice, but nurtured the people who keep it alive? How much smoother could everything run if structure weren’t about control but trust, clarity, and care? 
In this podcast episode snippet from the GPBC25 Series, Jennifer Froemel discusses building a structure with soul and systems that support people, not just processes. 
Podcast Sponsor: Thrizer







Do you want to expand your private pay caseload? Check out Thrizer! Thrizer helps clients better navigate their out-of-network benefits and takes the entire burden of insurance off of them. 
That means, no more superbills, no more insurance calls, and the best part, no more long reimbursement waits.
Chances are you are providing a superbill to your clients. Superbills can be extremely overwhelming and challenging for your clients to navigate. Let alone needing to wait months for that reimbursement check.
Thrizer provides automatic claim submissions, manages claims end-to-end, and the best part, allows clients to just pay a copay for your sessions, while Thrizer covers the rest of your rate upfront and waits for reimbursement on your clients’ behalf
This is called Thrizer Pay and is already helping thousands of clients access therapy without needing to be out hundreds of dollars while waiting for reimbursement. It’s the best way to make your services more accessible and increase your private pay caseload, hands down.
Use the promo code POTP for a free trial. You’ll receive waived credit card fees for your first $2500 in charges. Time to thrive with Thrizer in 2025!
Time to thrive with Thrizer in 2025!
Meet Jennifer Froemel







Jennifer Froemel, LCPC, is the host of The Fear of Change Podcast and a seasoned therapist with nearly 30 years of experience helping people navigate life transitions and emotional growth. Through her warm, grounded approach, she explores how fear, change, and self-discovery intersect—and how embracing uncertainty can lead to greater clarity, connection, and purpose.Visit Fear of Change to listen to Jennifer’s podcast.
In This Podcast

* Trust your instincts when something feels off 
* Safety + trust = predictability 
* How you can build better systems 

Trust your instincts when something feels off 

I realized that consistency without rigidity meant care without chaos … I want my systems to work … So I recognize that with systems [that work] you have empathy and not rigidity. (Jennifer Froemel)

Jennifer Froemel was having a lot of trouble with her EHR systems when she first launched her private practice. 
Through seemingly numerous iterations and attempts to find where the problem lay, she realized that it was essential for her systems to focus on the people they served, rather than themselves, because ultimately they exist to make people’s lives better. 
Safety + trust = predictability 
When Jennifer hired the new billing team for her practice, their client retention and overall income levels increased. With better-designed systems that were specifically suited to her team and their clients’ needs, the business could function optimally. 

Over the last year that we’ve worked with this billing company, what’s happened is we increased our revenue by 23%! They helped, in real-time, redesign the front-end of our verification and benefits,
Show more...
2 weeks ago
28 minutes 56 seconds

The Practice of the Practice Podcast | Where Modern Psychology Meets the Business of Therapy
How to Figure Out What to Pay People with Joe Sanok | POP 1289
How can paying your team well be a strategic investment? How much smoother could your practice run if staff compensation matched both value and vision? What would retention look like if your payment structure created loyalty, not turnover?
In this podcast episode, Joe Sanok discusses how to figure out what to pay people.
Podcast Sponsor: Gusto

Something always comes up when you’re running a private practice. Well, Gusto’s payroll and HR services can make it a little easier.
Gusto was designed for you, the small business owner. They take the pain out of running a business. Automatically calculating paychecks, filing payroll taxes, setting up open enrollment—Gusto does it all.
Want more? Time tracking, health insurance, 401(k), onboarding, commuter benefits, offer letters, access to HRexperts—you get the idea. With Gusto, you can focus on the joy of running your business.
It’s super easy to set up and get started. And if you’re moving from another provider, Gusto can transfer all your data for you.
It’s no surprise 99% of businesses said the value they get for Gusto is worth the price. Here’s the best part: because you’re a listener, you get three months totally free. All you have to do is Click here!
In This Podcast

* Why do people stay at practices?
* What you need to know about paying staff
* Adjusting existing staff payment structures

Why do people stay at practices?

When we think about employees, and say, “Well, why wouldn’t they just go and start their own practice?” These folks aren’t cut from that cloth … We want to find the people that are going to be awesome employees with you. (Joe Sanok)

There will always be entrepreneurs, and there will always be employees. Some people like leading and running the show, while others like doing what needs to be done behind the scenes. 
What is important is that the leaders and business owners dedicate themselves to taking care of their employees and contracors, so that their staff retention increases, saving the business time and money, and ultimately keeping clients satisfied. 
What you need to know about paying staff
First, let’s talk numbers: 

What are your average reimbursement rates across your private pay and/ or insurance?


Imagine you are getting paid $130 per session … Now, the formula that we typically want you to shoot for is this breakdown: about 40% goes to your clinician, about 30% goes to infrastructure, operations, all of that, and that remaining 30% goes to your profit margin. (Joe Sanok) 

These are rough numbers, and you can use this breakdown and tweak it depending on where you work (if rent is expensive), or whether you want to pay your staff more, or any other factor. These are simple guidelines that you can use, and adjust however you want. 

For anyone working 15 hours or under, consider hiring them part-time. What does that look like? 15 sessions a week on average x $52 (from the average reimbursement) which gives you $780, and with an extra added admin rate, that’s $930 per week. 

With the five non-clinicial hours, there can be some marketing or editing efforts made. 

We do want to have predictability for the practice, so we would say, “Okay, your hours are going to be on these days.” We want to hire for what we need. (Joe Sanok)


For staff working more than 15 hours on average are likely full-time staff. You do the exact same thing, but put the average at 25 hours.
Show more...
2 weeks ago
21 minutes 41 seconds

The Practice of the Practice Podcast | Where Modern Psychology Meets the Business of Therapy
The Art of Storytelling with Kabie Stein from Here:Say | POP 1288
What could it do for your practice if you honed the art of listening? What if the most powerful stories aren’t the dramatic ones, but the ordinary moments we learn to see differently? Which stories do you have that could resonate with people more than you think?
In this podcast episode, Joe Sanok speaks about the art of storytelling with Kabie Stein from Here:Say. 
Podcast Sponsor: Headway







I want to thank Headway for sponsoring this episode. If you run a group practice, you know that accepting insurance can be overwhelming. Between credentialing, billing, and payroll, the admin side can easily take over your week. Headway was built to help you handle this — and they’re the only platform designed specifically for in-network group practices.
Whether you’re growing your team or running an established practice, Headway makes the business side easier with faster credentialing, higher per-session rates, and biweekly payments your team can count on.
They work with therapy, psychiatric, and hybrid groups — and there are no subscription fees. Just the support you need to run your practice with ease.
Run your best group practice with Headway — trusted by thousands of group practice leaders to simplify insurance admin and reach more people through in-network care.
Curious how Headway can work for you? 
Meet Kabie Stein







Kabie Stein is the founder and Creative Director of Here:Say Storytelling in Traverse City, Michigan. She believes everyone has a story worth telling—so she created a space where the hilarious, heartfelt, and even horrifying all get a microphone. With a childhood rooted in word games around the dinner table, Kabie now guides a community of storytellers to share their truths, listen deeply, and find connection in the everyday.
Visit Here:Say and connect on Instagram and LinkedIn.
In This Podcast

* Why storytelling is the focus 
* “What do I have to say?”
* How to make a mundane story interesting 
* Kabie’s advice to private practitioners

Why storytelling is the focus 

You know, it was something that I wanted to exist. I was relatively new to town, I didn’t know anybody when I moved here, and I was thinking, “I want to meet more people. How am I going to meet the writers and the people who I might have things in common with?” (Kabie Stein)

Here:Say later expanded into a community project, but when Kabie first launched it, it was more about her finding a way to connect with like-minded people around her. 

I was like, “Okay, I’ll do it.” I was just something that I wanted to have exist … I said, “Alright, I’ll start it, and I’ll figure it out as I go!” (Kabie Stein)

Kabie landed on storytelling as the central point within Here:Say because she knows that people want to tell their stories, and that they want to be seen and heard in a community that welcomes and affirms them. 
“What do I have to say?”

If somebody says to me, “I don’t have any stories”, I say, “That’s impossible.” The thing is, we all have experiences. The key is you have to believe that it’s interesting, or that it can be, and I think all stories can be interesting. (Kabie Stein)

Everybody has a story.
Show more...
2 weeks ago
32 minutes 54 seconds

The Practice of the Practice Podcast | Where Modern Psychology Meets the Business of Therapy
GPBC25 Series: Dynamic Marketing to Ensure Your Referrals Never Slow Down with Jaime Mills | POP 1287
How can you market your practice without burning out or breaking the bank? Why is successfully growing your referral base less about pressure and more about presence? How can you make both your network and Google fall a little more in love with your practice?
In this podcast episode snippet from the GPBC25 series, Jamie Mills discusses dynamic marketing to ensure your referrals never slow down. 
Podcast Sponsor: A Finer Framework
If you’re growing a group practice, you know how much time and energy it takes to keep your clinicians licensed in multiple states — and keep up with renewals and CE requirements.
That’s where A Finer Framework comes in, your trusted partner for mental health licensure. 
A Finer Framework partners with mental health group practice owners to handle multi-state licensing, license renewals, and tracking continuing education — so you and your team can stay focused on serving clients, not buried in paperwork.
Whether you’re onboarding new hires, expanding your telehealth reach, or planning to grow into new states, they make the entire licensing process smooth and stress-free.
Join the hundreds of clinicians that already trust A Finer Framework to save time and headaches. Visit afinerframework.org/joesanok today to learn more.
Meet Jaime Mills







Jaime Mills, LPC, is the founder and Clinical Director of Liberty Mental Health, a counseling practice based in southeast Michigan. Established in 2020, Liberty Mental Health provides therapy services for children, individuals, couples, and families. Jaime is dedicated to creating a warm and modern environment where both clients and clinicians feel supported. She emphasizes the importance of genuine care and believes that therapists must also be cared for to effectively support their clients. Additionally, Liberty Mental Health serves as a training center, offering internships for master’s degree students in clinical mental health, social work, and marriage and family studies, with supervised caseloads and mentoring opportunities.
Visit Liberty Mental Health and connect on Instagram and LinkedIn.
In This Podcast

* How much time should you spend marketing your practice?
* Build your network with intention 
* Make Google happy 
* Quick and easy website tips 

 
How much time should you spend marketing your practice?
Marketing your private practice successfully does not need to break the bank, and neither does it have to take an extreme amount of time.  In fact, a few hours a week will do the trick perfectly. 
I probably spend four to six hours a month marketing, and you can even do it in bits and pieces, it doesn’t have to be this super six-month strategy that you have to follow exactly, because the reality is that clients have way more options … How can you stand out, and how can you use other practices to your benefit, and not view them as competition? (Jamie Mills)
Build your network with intention
“Who, what, when, and how” are important when it comes to building out your network.  

Who: Where are your ideal clients? From whom are they getting information about finding therapists and clinicians? 

I want you to think, “Where are my potential clients at?
Show more...
2 weeks ago
28 minutes 52 seconds

The Practice of the Practice Podcast | Where Modern Psychology Meets the Business of Therapy
15 Surprising Ways to Use AI in Your Counseling Private Practice with Joe Sanok | POP 1286
How can therapists use AI to save time without losing the human touch that clients need most? Are you struggling to come up with some good prompts and want a few to get started with? How can we get involved in the AI conversation to shape how it serves our practices and clients?
In this podcast episode, Joe Sanok discusses 15 surprising ways to use AI in your counseling private practice. 
Podcast Sponsor: JotPsych







If you’re in private practice, you already know—it’s not just about seeing clients. It’s notes, treatment plans, onboarding, scheduling, insurance, forms… the list goes on.
JotPsych was built to take the busywork off your plate. It’s the first AI-powered EHR made specifically for therapists. It can draft your progress notes automatically, send reminders, handle scheduling, deliver clinical screeners, and help with treatment planning. It’s a smart system that learns how you work— and then works for you.
JotPsych has already supported over a million therapy visits and is helping thousands of clinicians save hours every week.
You can try it free—and get 50% off your first two months with code JOE at JotPsych.com/Joe.
In This Podcast

* The biggest issue with AI? Perfection 
* Client session and clinical work AI ideas
* Business-related practice management AI ideas
* Thinking strategically with AI 

The biggest issue with AI? Perfection 
One of the biggest problems with AI is that it’s too perfect. People can spot an AI email, they can spot an AI landing page. You need to have a person go through it, look at how you speak, and then train the AI to speak like you. (Joe Sanok)
You need to humanize the work that you create with AI, because it is too perfect.
No one naturally speaks or writes in the way AI does, so if you don’t change it, people can spot it a mile away. You can train your AI models to learn from your way of speaking. 
Another thing you can do is to give a role to the AI that you want it to answer your question from. Is the AI a colleague, a client, another expert?  Asking the AI to respond to your prompt or question with an assumed role is going to give it a tighter angle to respond in, which increases your chances of a more accurate answer. 
Do you want [the AI] to act like an attorney in Michigan? Do you want it to act like an accountant? Do you want it to act like you? Giving it some context is really helpful. (Joe Sanok)
You can then take what you learn and verify it with a person who is an expert themselves in that field or industry. 
Client session and clinical work AI ideas
1 – Turn bulleted notes into full soap notes. 

Prompt: “Think like a licensed therapist writing soap notes for a [state]-based private practice … Turn these bullet points into professional, insurance-ready notes. Keep the notes consistent and the client identifiers removed.”

2 – Create treatment plans that will pass insurance audits. 

Prompt: “Think like an IFS supervisor. Tell me what assumptions you’ll make … Write a treatment plan for a generalized anxiety disorder using CBT and mindfulness-based interventions with goals and expected outcomes.” 

3 – Build client homework between sessions. 

Prompt: “Think like a trauma-informed therapist specializing in self-compassion. Create five reflective journal prompts and three grounding exercises for a client processing trauma.” 

4 – Summarize sessions for client followups. 

Prompt: “Think like a compassionate therapist. Write a brief, strength-based summary for a client after session, include two reminders, one affirmation,
Show more...
2 weeks ago
23 minutes 42 seconds

The Practice of the Practice Podcast | Where Modern Psychology Meets the Business of Therapy
Rebuilding a Marriage with Integrated Attachment Theory with Bryan Power | POP 1285
What happens when old attachment wounds start driving the train in your relationships? How can understanding your attachment style help you rebuild trust, communication, and connection with your partner? What does it take to turn therapy tools into lasting change inside a marriage?
In this podcast episode, Joe Sanok speaks about rebuilding a marriage with integrated attachment theory with Bryan Power. 
Podcast Sponsor: Headway







I want to thank Headway for sponsoring this episode. If you run a group practice, you know that accepting insurance can be overwhelming. Between credentialing, billing, and payroll, the admin side can easily take over your week. Headway was built to help you handle this — and they’re the only platform designed specifically for in-network group practices.
Whether you’re growing your team or running an established practice, Headway makes the business side easier with faster credentialing, higher per-session rates, and biweekly payments your team can count on.
They work with therapy, psychiatric, and hybrid groups — and there are no subscription fees. Just the support you need to run your practice with ease.
Run your best group practice with Headway — trusted by thousands of group practice leaders to simplify insurance admin and reach more people through in-network care.
Curious how Headway can work for you? 
Meet Bryan Power

Bryan Power is the founder of My Relationship Fail, where he turns his personal story of crisis—culminating in a restraining order with his then-partner—into a powerful lesson in healing and connection.
Drawing on his training in Integrated Attachment Theory (IAT), Bryan guides individuals and couples through the six core elements of attachment work: wounds, needs, emotions, boundaries, communication, and behaviour—helping them move from breakdown to breakthrough.Visit Bryan’s website and connect on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn.
In This Podcast

*
How integrated attachment theory helped a marriage

*
The four different attachment styles

*
Using therapeutic tools to save a marriage

*
Bryan’s advice to private practitioners 


How integrated attachment theory helped a marriage
Integrated attachment theory functions on six core elements: 
1 – Core wounds
2 – Needs
3 – Emotions 
4 – Boundaries 
5 – Communication 
6 – Behaviors 

When I started looking at all those six different things, I realized how much I lack in a lot of those areas and [that] I really needed some work on those things. (Bryan Power)

In therapy, using this theory and these six aspects was a tool that Bryan used to really understand where he needed to place additional focus, support, and awareness within himself to strengthen the relationship he has with his wife.
The four different attachment styles
Everyone knows the avoidant and codependent attachment styles, but they go deeper, and there are two more to know about: 
1 – Secure: the more balanced style that people are working towards,
Show more...
3 weeks ago
27 minutes 49 seconds

The Practice of the Practice Podcast | Where Modern Psychology Meets the Business of Therapy
GPBC25 Series: Looking Ahead: Positioning Yourself for Retirement and Beyond with Ellen J.W. Gigliotti | POP 1284
What does it really mean to build a legacy that lasts beyond your practice? How can you prepare for the next chapter without losing your sense of purpose? What if retirement isn’t an ending at all, but an evolution, and a new chapter that you can start writing now?
In this podcast episode from the GPBC25 Series, Ellen J. W. Gigliotti speaks about looking ahead and positioning yourself for retirement and beyond.
Podcast Sponsor: Headway







I want to thank Headway for sponsoring this episode. If you run a group practice, you know that accepting insurance can be overwhelming. Between credentialing, billing, and payroll, the admin side can easily take over your week. Headway was built to help you handle this — and they’re the only platform designed specifically for in-network group practices.
Whether you’re growing your team or running an established practice, Headway makes the business side easier with faster credentialing, higher per-session rates, and biweekly payments your team can count on.
They work with therapy, psychiatric, and hybrid groups — and there are no subscription fees. Just the support you need to run your practice with ease.
Run your best group practice with Headway — trusted by thousands of group practice leaders to simplify insurance admin and reach more people through in-network care.
Curious how Headway can work for you? 
Meet Ellen Gigliotti

Ellen J.W. Gigliotti is the guiding force behind Retire + Thrive, where she helps women professionals, entrepreneurs, therapists and business-owners craft retirements that are not an after-thought, but a bold next chapter. With 20+ years as a licensed marriage & family therapist, she has walked the transition from practice and business into a purposeful future — and now uses that lived and professional experience to support others.
Visit the Retire + Thrive website.
In This Podcast

* The benefits of thinking ahead 
* Retirement is more (and less) than you imagine 
* Surprising things that change 
* Ellen’s questions for you 

The benefits of thinking ahead 
You may be nowhere near retirement yet, and that’s fine. You may just be starting your private practice, or running a full-scale group practice with a whole load of staff, clients, and loving every minute of it. Or, you may want to pack up and sell now. 
Whatever your current situation is, thinking ahead will always be beneficial. 

It was very hard to figure things out business-wise, but it’s also hard to figure things out personally. You also have to give some thought to that – not just how to sell your practice, but also, “What do you want your life to look like?” What is your definition of a life well lived? (Ellen Gigliotti)

It is better to make a plan and not use it than get to a place where you need a plan but didn’t prepare one. Plans can always be changed and updated as time goes on, but there can be a problem when you need one and there isn’t one. 

It helps to chalk out anything you’re doing, any kind of planning … and it also helps to explore a little bit. (Ellen Gigliotti)

Retirement is more (and less) than you imagine
Ellen explains that your expectations of retirement may be skewed because it is both more and less than you imagine. 
It is not a full vacation, but on the other hand, it can be much more peaceful. Simultaneously,
Show more...
3 weeks ago
23 minutes 43 seconds

The Practice of the Practice Podcast | Where Modern Psychology Meets the Business of Therapy
What it Takes to be a Strong Father with Kirk & Casey Martin | POP 1283
What does true calmness look like in the middle of a parenting storm? How can fathers rewrite the patterns they inherited and still lead with strength? What happens when parenting becomes less about control and more about connection?
In this podcast episode, Joe Sanok discusses calm parenting and masculinity today with Kirk and Casey Martin.
Podcast Sponsor: A Finer Framework
If you’re growing a group practice, you know how much time and energy it takes to keep your clinicians licensed in multiple states — and keep up with renewals and CE requirements.
That’s where A Finer Framework comes in, your trusted partner for mental health licensure. 
A Finer Framework partners with mental health group practice owners to handle multi-state licensing, license renewals, and tracking continuing education — so you and your team can stay focused on serving clients, not buried in paperwork.
Whether you’re onboarding new hires, expanding your telehealth reach, or planning to grow into new states, they make the entire licensing process smooth and stress-free.
Join the hundreds of clinicians that already trust A Finer Framework to save time and headaches. Visit afinerframework.org/joesanok today to learn more.
Meet Kirk & Casey Martin







Kirk and Casey Martin are the father-and-son team behind Celebrate Calm, a movement helping parents of strong-willed kids build connection instead of control. Through their workshops, podcast, and coaching, they teach families how to replace yelling and power struggles with calm leadership, responsibility, and respect. Kirk draws on his own journey of unlearning harsh parenting patterns, while Casey brings the perspective of a son who witnessed—and lived—the transformation firsthand. Together, they model how strength and calm can coexist in modern fatherhood.
Visit Celebrate Calm, listen to their podcast and connect on Facebook.
In This Podcast

* Model taking responsibility for your kids 
* How to parent a strong-willed child 
* A son’s lesson from watching his father’s journey 
* What calmness can look like
* Kirk and Casey’s advice to private practitioners 

Model taking responsibility for your kids 
Kirk and Casey, the father-and-son duo, have come together to educate and share their lessons with other families on how to parent kids with real love and respect. 
One of the big lessons that Kirk shares is how he personally relearned what it means to be a “good” parent, changing and reshaping what he was taught by his father when he became one himself to Casey. 

I thought, “Oh, I’ll just do what my dad did with me, I’ll shut that down”, and the strong-willed kids just fight twice as hard, and so what I learned was that it wasn’t about changing Casey’s behavior, it was learning how to control my own. That’s what ultimately changed our relationship … There’s one person in life that I can control, and that’s myself, and it’s also the quickest way to change your child’s behavior. (Kirk Martin) 

Kirk shares how the real lesson came from learning how to regulate and take responsibility for his own actions, words, and behaviors, and that his modeling these skills is what strengthened his relationship with Casey, his son. 

Parenting, for me,
Show more...
3 weeks ago
44 minutes 38 seconds

The Practice of the Practice Podcast | Where Modern Psychology Meets the Business of Therapy
Moving Beyond Outrage with Dr. William J. Brady | PoP 1282
How do we recognize when our moral anger is being manipulated for engagement? What happens when outrage becomes less about justice and more about belonging? What would it look like to move beyond clickbait outrage and turn outraged energy into real, aligned action?
In this podcast episode, Joe Sanok speaks about moving beyond outrage with Dr. William J. Brady. 
Podcast Sponsor: Headway







I want to thank Headway for sponsoring this episode. If you run a group practice, you know that accepting insurance can be overwhelming. Between credentialing, billing, and payroll, the admin side can easily take over your week. Headway was built to help you handle this — and they’re the only platform designed specifically for in-network group practices.
Whether you’re growing your team or running an established practice, Headway makes the business side easier with faster credentialing, higher per-session rates, and biweekly payments your team can count on.
They work with therapy, psychiatric, and hybrid groups — and there are no subscription fees. Just the support you need to run your practice with ease.
Run your best group practice with Headway — trusted by thousands of group practice leaders to simplify insurance admin and reach more people through in-network care.
Curious how Headway can work for you? 
Meet Dr. William J. Brady







William J. Brady is an Assistant Professor of Management & Organizations at the Kellogg School of Management, with a courtesy appointment in the Psychology Department at Northwestern University and affiliation with the Institute for Policy Research. He researches how human psychology and digitally-mediated social environments interact—especially focusing on emotions, morality, and algorithm-driven social networks—using behavioral experiments, big data, and natural-language processing methods.
William holds a B.A. in Psychology & Philosophy from University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, a Ph.D. in Social Psychology from New York University, and post-doctoral training at Yale University.
Visit William’s website and connect on LinkedIn.
In This Podcast

* Moral outrage as a social currency 
* The function of outrage in human evolution 
* Navigating lines in the sand during crises 
* Moving beyond clickbait outrage and into aligned action 
* Dr. William Brady’s advice to private practitioners

Moral outrage as a social currency 
Most people are familiar with the fact that humanity has a strong tendency to find a group to identify with, whether that’s a political stance, a friend group, or any type of social group in general.  People know that there is safety in numbers, and they want to be included as well as part of what’s going on around them. 
However, it is this tendency that can grow so strong that it pushes people against one another, even though they are part of the same overall community and group: humanity. 
As soon as you start to identify yourself in these group boundaries, you end up falling into certain ways of thinking that tend to prioritize your group identity. It turns out that if you express outrage toward another group, it’s a very easy way for you to signal to your group that you are a serious and genuine group member. (Dr. William Brady)
This is the way in which outrage becomes social currency: when you show outrage t...
Show more...
3 weeks ago
30 minutes 34 seconds

The Practice of the Practice Podcast | Where Modern Psychology Meets the Business of Therapy
GPBC25 Series: Blueprint for a Lifestyle-Focused Practice with Elizabeth Carr | POP 1281
Are you interested in building a lifestyle practice? Why is a lifestyle practice more sellable and attractive to buyers than a performance-based practice? What are the central components of a lifestyle practice that you can start working on from today?
In this podcast episode snippet from the GPBC25 Series, Elizabeth Carr shares the blueprint for a lifestyle-focused practice. 
Podcast Sponsor: JotPsych







If you’re in private practice, you already know—it’s not just about seeing clients. It’s notes, treatment plans, onboarding, scheduling, insurance, forms… the list goes on.
JotPsych was built to take the busywork off your plate. It’s the first AI-powered EHR made specifically for therapists. It can draft your progress notes automatically, send reminders, handle scheduling, deliver clinical screeners, and help with treatment planning. It’s a smart system that learns how you work— and then works for you.
JotPsych has already supported over a million therapy visits and is helping thousands of clinicians save hours every week.
You can try it free—and get 50% off your first two months with code JOE at JotPsych.com/Joe.
Meet Dr. Elizabeth Carr







Dr. Elizabeth Carr is a licensed clinical psychologist and the founder of Kentlands Psychotherapy. With over 20 years of experience—including six years as a Navy psychologist—she now leads a thriving group practice focused on compassionate, evidence-based care. While she maintains a small caseload, Dr. Carr’s primary role is mentoring her team and shaping the practice’s vision for holistic mental wellness.
Visit Dr. Carr’s practice website and connect on Instagram and LinkedIn.
In This Podcast

* Is selling your practice a possibility? 
* Lifestyle business versus performance business 
* Go slow to go fast 
* “Treat your practice like a Four Seasons Hotel”

Is selling your practice a possibility?
Have you ever considered selling your private practice? Maybe not now, but somewhere in the next few years or decade or two? If you have, why? 

Do you want more time to travel? Do you want less stressors? Right? Because I suspect that if you write it down, there would be different reasons for different people … It’s important to figure out what you want to do next. (Elizabeth Carr) 

There are a hundred and one reasons as to why someone would want to sell up their practice one day, and it varies from person to person. If you see this as a possibility in your future, it may be worthwhile to dedicate some planning time now to support this transition, making it easier for you when it does happen. 
Lifestyle business versus performance business
A lifestyle business concerns:

Your values 
Desired schedules 
Sustainable hours and measuring your success by freedom and fulfillment 

On the contrary, a performance business is about: 

Boosting revenue 
Maximizing growth 
Increasing market value and scalability 

It is important to note which one is more aligned with your ideal future and work towards that. However, these two types also relate to sellability. 

If you build a turn-key sellable business, you’re also building a lifestyle business because how many of us are working 40, 50, 60 hours a week?
Show more...
3 weeks ago
28 minutes

The Practice of the Practice Podcast | Where Modern Psychology Meets the Business of Therapy
Addressing the Mental Health Crisis with Retired US Senator Debbie Stabenow | POP 1280
Can empathy still thrive in politics today? What happens when mental health advocacy meets the halls of power? How do we keep believing in change when cynicism feels easier?
In this podcast episode, Joe Sanok addresses the mental health crisis with retired US Senator Debbie Stabenow. 
Podcast Sponsor: Headway







I want to thank Headway for sponsoring this episode. If you run a group practice, you know that accepting insurance can be overwhelming. Between credentialing, billing, and payroll, the admin side can easily take over your week. Headway was built to help you handle this — and they’re the only platform designed specifically for in-network group practices.
Whether you’re growing your team or running an established practice, Headway makes the business side easier with faster credentialing, higher per-session rates, and biweekly payments your team can count on.
They work with therapy, psychiatric, and hybrid groups — and there are no subscription fees. Just the support you need to run your practice with ease.
Run your best group practice with Headway — trusted by thousands of group practice leaders to simplify insurance admin and reach more people through in-network care.
Curious how Headway can work for you? 
Meet Senator Debbie Stabenow (Ret.)




Debbie Stabenow served over five decades in public office, including as Michigan’s first female U.S. Senator. A lifelong advocate for Michigan’s people and environment, she championed initiatives to protect the Great Lakes, strengthen agriculture, and expand access to mental health care. As chair of the Senate Agriculture Committee, she helped craft bipartisan legislation supporting farmers and clean energy.
Today, she continues her work advancing community well-being and sustainable growth beyond elected office.
Visit Debbie’s website and connect on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube.
In This Podcast

* Getting into political science and Public Office 
* Mental health progress today
* What it takes to connect with people with differing opinions 
* How to continue inspiring hope 
* Debbie’s advice to private practitioners 

Getting into political science and Public Office 
Debbie Stabenow explains that the world wherein she became famous, working as a Senator and in Public Office, found her more than she pursued it. 
She grew up in a small town where her mother was a nurse, so she was aware of the essentiality of mental health and public health services from a young age. 
Her father was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, which sparked her interest in the connction between government funding and the necessity of having public healthcare available to the general public – particularly when one funded service was due to close. 

I knew nothing about politics, but I got involved. I went to the county board meetings, I ended up leading the effort. We saved the nursing home! And it turned out I lived in the district of the commission who was trying to close it. Everybody said to me, “You should run against him!” I knew nothing about politics, but I was pretty mad, and so after a while I finally said “Yes”, and I ran – I was 24!
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4 weeks ago
36 minutes 6 seconds

The Practice of the Practice Podcast | Where Modern Psychology Meets the Business of Therapy
Therapists aren’t taught business skills. So how do you market your services, automate systems, or grow from a solo practice to a group; all without burning out?

What if you want to integrate AI, mindfulness, sports psychology, or psychedelic therapy into your work—where do you even start?

The Practice of the Practice Podcast helps therapists, counselors, coaches, and wellness professionals navigate the business side of mental health while staying at the forefront of clinical innovation.

Hosted by Joe Sanok, consultant and author of Thursday is the New Friday, each episode dives into the questions practitioners actually face—marketing fundamentals, finances, ethical and legal challenges, scaling sustainably—and features the leading voices in all things therapy, both business, and academic.